Wednesday, 2008-07-16

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jibotrejon is a killer MC from staten island and is the 10th member of the wutang clan and http://www.rejon.org/00:48
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jibotjgay is http://www.gnu.org/people/speakers.html#Gay01:35
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isforinsectspaulproteus: sleeping (SYN)?02:41
paulproteusisforinsects, Hi02:58
paulproteusisforinsects, Not asleep yet.02:58
paulproteusSoon, though. What's up?02:58
isforinsectsSooo... want to join a phone conference about a post-apocalpyse data storage of Public Commons materials and culture?02:58
isforinsectsA seed bank, if you will, for culture and technology.02:58
paulproteusisforinsects, Right now?03:01
isforinsectsMaybe just IRC as a back channel to everything else we all seem to be doing?  I'm talking to several other people and only two or so can call tonight.03:02
isforinsects:P03:02
paulproteusI'm really tired.03:03
paulproteusCan we all talk tomorrow maybe?03:03
paulproteusIf not, then minutes are okay with me.03:03
isforinsectsTomorrow seems better for everyone03:03
isforinsectsI will ping you if I can get somethign set up.03:03
paulproteusGreat, any time before 5 PM I can probably do.03:03
paulproteusThe more notice ,the better.  (I'm in Eastern Time right now.)03:04
isforinsectsBack in NY?03:05
isforinsectsas am I btw03:05
paulproteusI'll be in NYC for HOPE.03:07
paulproteusDC for now.03:07
isforinsectsaaah03:09
isforinsectsRight03:09
isforinsectsI need to go to that03:09
paulproteusThen I'd see you there.03:40
paulproteus"IRL" as they say.03:40
paulproteusFor now, good night.03:40
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jibotrejon is a killer MC from staten island and is the 10th member of the wutang clan and http://www.rejon.org/05:50
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davidmccabehey paulproteus, how do I revert a file on one branch to the version in another branch?07:57
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Renichhey, creative guys!09:44
Renichanyone awake?09:44
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bringatowelhmm im awake, dunno about creative...11:07
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XTKX_VBhello13:44
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jibotnathany is teh preacher of teh gozpl of teh Ceiling Cat and witness to teh menny divine miraclz of Ceiling Cat14:59
balorI'm now the representative of a pan-European research organisation (for my sins against Ceiling Cat).  If I was looking to get some advice (in some confidence) on how to licence all our publications under CC terms, who could I contact?15:01
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jibotbrianrowe is at Seattle University School of Law, class of 2009 and legal intern at CC15:02
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balorI'm specifically looking for British/European advice.15:03
baloror I should say European/British advice as an order of preference15:04
greg-gbalor: if you are looking for legal advice, it is best to talk with a lawyer.  We don't legally advise people (IANAL).15:10
balorgreg-g: I'm not looking for legal advice.  just someone to discuss our particular situation and to get some insight from the CC.15:11
balorgreg-g: As an open-source developer I know these things are best done in the open15:11
balorgreg-g: But I can't talk about this openly yet..15:12
greg-gbalor: ahh, I see15:12
greg-gwell, there are resources online in our wiki, wiki.creativecommons.org15:13
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nathanybalor: if you're looking for someone with EU perspective, maybe check out http://creativecommons.org/international15:13
nathanyyou might be able to contact one of the EU country leads15:13
balornathany: That may be the best route.15:14
greg-gbalor: good luck with the endeavor15:14
balorgreg-g: Thanks.15:14
paulproteus*endeavour15:15
greg-gthanks paulproteus :)15:15
nathanyi mean, CC can provide private consultation about the licenses and how you might mark the works, etc, but we don't have much  EU perspective15:15
balornathany: I *think* what I need is to learn of experiences of dealing with publishers and to know whether the licence *I've* chosen to foist on our authors is the most reasonable choice, for whatever value of reasonable you want to assume.15:18
nathanyhrm15:19
nathanyi don't know that we have that sort of experience15:19
nathanyone other option would be to ask on the cc-community mailing list15:19
nathanymost of the responses will be way off base, but you might find some someone with that experience15:20
balorI really can't say much on public lists until we've gone down the road a bit further.15:20
nathanyright15:20
* balor hates office politics15:20
nathanyi was saying you could solicit people with experience using CC w/Publishers15:20
balornathany: That makes sense15:20
nathanylike i said, you'll get lots of people bike shedding, but you might find someone :)15:21
balorGreat15:21
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balorIn general, I've been pimping the CC-BY licence to academics.  Is this a reasonable choice?  Or am I missing something significant.  We'd want a licence that can handle format shifting and allow many libraries to archive the work (without arduous legal processes).15:23
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balorWhich seems to rule out CC-BY-ND or CC-BY-NC15:23
paulproteusbalor++15:24
paulproteusYou're thinking along the right lines.15:24
paulproteusScience Commons' website may have some resources for advocating open access to publications.15:24
paulproteusThey agree with the recommendation of just CC-BY.15:24
nathanybalor: note that CC licenses (even ND) explicitly allow format shifting15:24
nathanybut i think you're on the right track15:24
balorpaulproteus: I've had a look.  But I need to pitch this at some traditional publishers.  I was hoping someone had experience with it.15:25
balornathany: I didn't realise that.15:25
paulproteusThe SC folks may have some experience.15:25
balornathany: I think academics would be happier with an ND licence.  We tend to view a piece of work as authorative.15:25
balornathany: does format-shifting extend to, say, taking a PDF and restructuring the layout to fit a HTML publication?15:26
nathanyit seems to me ND is the opposite of what most academics do (building on work of others, etc)15:26
balornathany: or is that a derrivative15:26
nathanyi'm not sure... i think it'd be ok, but IANAL15:26
balornathany: We build on others works, but their work is "set in stone" so to say.15:27
nathanyright, but just because you create a derivative doesn't make their work any less set in stone15:27
balornathany: There's an authorative piece of work that we criticise or improve.15:27
nathanyright15:27
balornathany: They'd really not like, say, me removing a paragraph from their work.15:27
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jibotBovinity is brilliant and aware of Basement Cat, and iz not afraid.15:27
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balornathany: but I'd like to be able to re-layout the work for print and screen.15:28
nathanysure, but you couldn't still call it their work, you'd have to cite them and no one taking a real look at the work would believe you were doing anything substantiative15:28
nathanyso it doesn't seem like it hurts them15:28
nathany(where cite == "attribution" above, possibly stronger than typical citation)15:28
paulproteusND makes translations illegal, even if you attribute the original and mention that you are not the original.15:29
nathanyof course, you know your community better than i... i just think that doing an ND license would put you out of step with science commons and open access generally15:29
balornathany: Does CC-BY-ND cover the case where I have to rework an article to fit onto a screen?15:29
paulproteusbalor, You should read the format-shifting section of the license; for me, at least, it's been a while since I read that section.15:29
balornathany: A worry might be along the lines of: J.R. Hacker publishes "Life" in which he states "black is white".  Under a CC-BY licence someone could flood the net with a PDF purporting to be by J.R. Hacker which states "black is blue".15:31
paulproteusIs there maybe a talking points section of the SC website for this?15:31
balorOr am I waaay off base.15:31
nathanybalor: to the extent that's a legitimate worry, i don't think it's at all related to the CC license you choose.15:31
paulproteusbalor, I would email http://sciencecommons.org/contact/ (feel free to CC: me, asheesh at creativecommons.org) and see if they have some perspectives to share or talking points.15:32
nathanyif you use BY-ND, it's infringement, if you use BY, it's still infringement (since you're purporting that J.R. Hacker endorses your re-use of their work, which the license prohibitis)15:32
balornathany: ok..I'd like to hear that argument.  Does it say that if someone is ethically bad enough to misrepresent your work they would also violate a CC-BY-ND licence?15:32
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paulproteusI'm going to run off for a while, but nathany may continue to be interesting.15:32
balornathany: ah!15:32
paulproteus(-: last tip: do read the licenses' legal code through!)15:33
balorpaulproteus: Will re-read15:33
nathanybalor: plus you could probably make the argument that impersonating J.R. Hacker isn't the same as attributing him15:33
nathanyso i think this is just a "putting work on the web" fear, disguised as a CC license fear15:34
balornathany: Surprisingly most of the authors are happy with it.  I just want to be sure I've chosen the most appropriate licence where appropriate may mean conservative.  It's the publishers who think that this is poison.15:35
nathanyright15:35
nathanysounds like you're doing a lot of investigation to get this right, which is a good thing :)15:36
balorWell I've already done some re-licencing of work under a CC-BY licence.  We're just looking to extend what I thought was a one-off project to cover work over the next 4 years.15:36
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nathanyah, cool15:37
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jibotftobia is the other tech intern at Creative Commons and head of RPI Free Culture15:37
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balorIt's ok to screw it up once (which we didn't), but I'd rather not screw it up over the next 4 years.15:37
balornathany: Many thanks for this useful conversation.  It's hometime in Europe.  I hope you'll be hearing from me in the near(ish) future :)15:38
nathanybalor: great :)15:38
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hdworakhi15:54
paulproteusHowdy hdworak.15:57
hdworakwhy on why noone at labs.cc has mentioned that videos from the CC Tech Summit are available at YouTube15:58
hdworakI'm adding an entry now15:58
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paulproteushdworak, Cool (-:15:59
hdworakno, wait15:59
hdworakthe links are hidden at ccwiki15:59
paulproteusIt's blogged on the real blog too iirc.15:59
hdworakyou click on "CC Tech Summit pre-blogging"16:00
hdworakthere's a link "tech summit"16:00
hdworakand at the bottom table you have a right column with "video" links16:00
hdworak:)16:00
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jibotSteren is sitting next to greg-g and from Nancy16:01
hdworakso I dunno, whether it's okay to embed videos in a new lab entry16:01
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greg-ghdworak: I blogged it on the main CC blog16:02
hdworakmain CC blog?16:02
greg-gcreativecommons.org16:02
greg-gcheck it out, its a blog16:02
hdworakhttp://creativecommons.org/weblog16:02
hdworakah, ok16:02
hdworakdidn't know about that16:03
hdworaksorry for false alarm then16:03
greg-g:)16:03
hdworak:)16:03
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hdworakpaulproteus: seems that liblicense would be useful for the libvalidator16:29
paulproteushdworak, I agree.16:29
hdworak(based on your talk)16:29
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paulproteusI was thinking you could upload files to the validator and it could ask liblicense for the license and show off the license info.16:29
hdworakdoes it support HTML, XHTML or RSS/ATOM?16:29
paulproteus(and other embedded metadata)16:29
hdworakexactly16:29
paulproteusNo, liblicense handles none of those formats, just media.16:29
hdworakthe Web application will support file upload and downloading an URI16:30
paulproteusIf you can build this feature by next Thursday we will totally demo it and credit you. (-:16:30
hdworak(direct input would make little sense for multimedia I guess)16:30
hdworakat Portland?16:30
hdworak:)16:30
hdworakgonna see what I can do16:31
paulproteushdworak, Yup, at OSCON.16:33
hdworakdo you have auto-detection of file format implemented?16:33
paulproteushdworak, yup.16:33
hdworakor would MIME type would be of any use?16:34
hdworakor file extension16:34
hdworakor user override?16:34
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jibotBovinity is brilliant and aware of Basement Cat, and iz not afraid.16:34
paulproteushdworak, Allowing the user to select the file format rather than have it auto-detect would be possibly useful.16:38
paulproteusI think that the auto-detect always works, though.16:38
ftobianathany: just because a license is superseded, that doesn't necessarily mean it's deprecated, yes?16:39
nathanyftobia: correct16:39
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hdworakpaulproteus: do you use magic numbers for that?16:40
paulproteushdworak, I... don't remember.16:40
hdworakok :)16:40
ftobiaand if a license is replaced by license2, and license2 is replaced by license3, calling license.current_version() should return license3?16:40
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jibotmlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons16:48
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jibotcurrybot is currytastic and <3 fair use17:59
currybotjibot: mmm... curry...17:59
ftobiacurrybot: list17:59
currybot(1) KASHMIRI RAJMAH (Kidney beans cooked in onion,ginger,garlic,tomato and masala curry )17:59
currybot(2) TARKARI HARYALA (Fresh vegetables sautéed with red onions, garlic, ginger, and fresh mustard green leaves)17:59
currybot(3) CHICKEN KHUMANI (Chicken cubes cooked in yogurt base gravy with dry apricots)17:59
currybot(4) MEATBALL-DO-PIYAZA (Meatball cooked in curry flavored raw mangoes, onions, tomatoes and vinegar)17:59
ftobiacurrybot: 117:59
currybotKASHMIRI RAJMAH (Kidney beans cooked in onion,ginger,garlic,tomato and masala curry ) Kashmir the Paradise of India is one of the largest producers of kidney beans, and Kidney beans are enjoyed all over world and are cooked in different ways. Here these are first soaked overnight in water and a little salt, then these are cooked in the base curry using many Kashmiri spices.17:59
currybot$5.0017:59
Bovinitykhumani ftw18:00
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nathanyajbrooks: btw, i think your edits to the events stuff may have broken things18:09
nathany(see http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CcLearn_Events)18:09
Bovinityactually it's a url change. (CcLearn_Events should have a redirect to the new page, though)18:12
nathanyah18:12
nathanywell the map isn't showing any events... not sure if other things got moved as well18:12
* paulproteus blinks in y'all's general direction18:14
Bovinitythe map rendering, i have no idea about. possibly ping asheesh18:14
Bovinityoh hi18:14
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nathanywait, i just realized ajbrooks didn't reply18:15
nathanydid he move the page?18:15
nathanyBovinity: that page still has a query in it, it's just broken now18:18
nathanygive the mass of edits by ajbrooks in the Event templates, it seems not unreasonable to assume the two are related18:19
nkinkadepaulproteus: Did you see the above about the learn map not rendering?18:21
nkinkade(fully)18:22
nathanypaulproteus: nevermind18:22
nathanyit's fine18:22
Bovinityepic fail averted.18:22
nkinkadeMy browser isn't showing the ping either.18:22
nkinkadeWas it a cache issue nathany?18:22
nathanyso it sounds like a caching problem18:22
* paulproteus goes back to whatever else he was doing18:22
nathanywhen i retrieved the text file manually it suddenly worked18:22
nathanyis varnish doing... something? with that that's confusing browsers?18:23
ajbrooksnathany: redirect is there now18:25
nathanythanks  :)18:25
nathanyyeah, leaving blank pages lying around is not great18:25
nathanyif you move the content, add a REDIRECT; if you want the page deleted, email webmaster18:25
ajbrookstotally, I actually would just like to delete it18:25
nkinkadenathany: Varnish shouldn't be caching anything.18:25
ajbrookswill do18:25
nkinkadepaulproteus put a special rule in the Varnish config to explicitly telling Varnish to not cache: /events-map/textfile.txt18:26
nkinkadeIs there another file involved?18:26
nathanynote that breaking links is bad, so we typically only delete if the content was inappropriate (spam) or transitional18:26
nathanynkinkade: nope, that's the one i retrieved18:26
nathanyweird18:26
nkinkadeMy browser still isn't showing the push-pins, even after empty the cache and force reloading.18:27
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jibotdavidstrauss is "P" and not "P"18:27
nkinkadeThe requested URL /~paulproteus/pin_green_h=20.png was not found on this server.18:27
nkinkadeThat seems to be the push-pin URL.18:27
nkinkadeOr that's what my browser thinks it is.18:28
nathanyit's really http://labs.creativecommons.org/~paulproteus/pins/pin_green_h=20.png18:28
nathanyit's fine for me... and since it became fine after retrieving the text file manually that makes me think it's something to do with that getting cached, misinterpreted, something18:29
nathanysigh18:29
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tim_hwangcurrybot list19:04
currybot(1) KASHMIRI RAJMAH (Kidney beans cooked in onion,ginger,garlic,tomato and masala curry )19:04
currybot(2) TARKARI HARYALA (Fresh vegetables sautéed with red onions, garlic, ginger, and fresh mustard green leaves)19:04
currybot(3) CHICKEN KHUMANI (Chicken cubes cooked in yogurt base gravy with dry apricots)19:04
currybot(4) MEATBALL-DO-PIYAZA (Meatball cooked in curry flavored raw mangoes, onions, tomatoes and vinegar)19:04
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cameronparkinscurrybot list19:07
currybot(1) KASHMIRI RAJMAH (Kidney beans cooked in onion,ginger,garlic,tomato and masala curry )19:07
currybot(2) TARKARI HARYALA (Fresh vegetables sautéed with red onions, garlic, ginger, and fresh mustard green leaves)19:07
currybot(3) CHICKEN KHUMANI (Chicken cubes cooked in yogurt base gravy with dry apricots)19:07
currybot(4) MEATBALL-DO-PIYAZA (Meatball cooked in curry flavored raw mangoes, onions, tomatoes and vinegar)19:07
cameronparkinsYES! it is trueeeeeeeeeee19:07
tvolhaha, the currybot blowing cameronparkins mind19:07
cameronparkinsI'll have a 1/2 combo please19:07
cameronparkinscan someone fedex that too me?19:07
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ftobianathany: should a Jurisdiction object take a "short code" or a URI to initialize itself? they're pretty directly translatable from what i can tell.19:54
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nathanyugh19:55
nathanyso i think that URI is the "correct" thing to do, but using a short code would be useful in many situations19:55
ftobiai can make it both. or either. or come up with some other way of choosing them.19:55
nathanyso i'd probably make the constructor take the URI and add a factory method for using the code19:56
ftobiasounds good.19:56
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jibotrejon is a killer MC from staten island and is the 10th member of the wutang clan and http://www.rejon.org/21:25
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rejonpost-larry karaoke21:34
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nkinkadeBovinity do you know anything about the site cswgspace?21:48
nkinkademlinksva: ^^^ Is that site still active?21:48
Bovinityit rings a bell21:48
mlinksvankinkade: it was a site for an internal working group21:58
mlinksvai think it was the subject of dataloss21:58
mlinksvaonly site lost in a disaster last summer21:59
mlinksvaan intern did sudo rm -rf /lib or similar21:59
mlinksvado you remember?21:59
nkinkademlinksva: Was I involved in that disaster?  I feel like I was.  In any case, can really do it some damage now and DROP DATABASE cswgspace?21:59
Bovinityoh that disaster21:59
Bovinityyou were here when it happened22:00
mlinksvais there anything in it?22:00
mlinksvai thought it was completely lost22:00
nkinkadeIt might have been totally lost.  I'll check now.22:00
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jibotnathany is teh preacher of teh gozpl of teh Ceiling Cat and witness to teh menny divine miraclz of Ceiling Cat22:00
nkinkademlinksva: http://cswgspace.creativecommons.org ... it appears to be empty.22:02
nkinkadeDoes that mean that there is no reason to even have it around anymore?  I'd prefer to get rid of it if it's not in use.22:03
nkinkadeHow about I don't migrate it from a6 to a7, and we'll call it day.  If someone by change complains later, then I'll just install a new wiki for that purpose.22:04
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nkinkade("call IT a day" & "by CHANCE" - I meant to say)22:04
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nathanynkinkade: is it really empty? i seem to remember that we actually lost that wiki in the great /var/lib removal of 200722:10
nathanyand weren't backing it up22:10
nathanyi'd double check with mlinksva verbally if you haven't already as to whether people will miss it22:10
mlinksvai guess it really is gone22:11
mlinksvahttp://cswgspace.creativecommons.org/wiki/index.php/Special:Allpages22:11
mlinksvaMain Page is the only page22:11
mlinksvago ahead and remove it, nkinkade22:11
SterenFear the French interns :)22:12
nathanySteren: exactly22:12
nathany:)22:12
nkinkadenathany: (late reply), yeah, we did lost that DB in the Great "rm -rf /var/lib" Catastrophe of 2007, it's been empty ever since.22:15
nathanygot it22:15
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jibotjgay is http://www.gnu.org/people/speakers.html#Gay22:41
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greg-gsemantic web discussion galore22:47
Sterennathany: I need some help concerning RDFa : <h3 rel="cc:p: permits" href="http://creativecommons.org/ns#Reproduction">BLABLABLA</h3>  <- This is not allowed and don't know how to do the relation without the use of a real hyperlink22:53
nathanywhat's not allowed about it?22:53
nathanyhref on h23?22:54
nathanyh3, that is?22:54
Sterenyes22:54
SterenI didn't read it but all examples use <a>22:54
nathanyright... but i think the XHTML+RDFa profile extends href to be valid on all elements22:54
Sterenand the validator refuses href on h322:54
nathanyhrm22:54
nathanythat sucks22:55
Sterenyeah22:55
mecredisthat does suck22:55
nathanyand the doctype and profile are set correctly?22:55
SterenDoctype: XHTML + RDFa22:56
Sterenwhat is the profile exactly ?22:56
nathanyone second, let me find the email where ben described it22:56
nathanySteren: i just forwarded you an email22:58
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nathanyi don't know if adding the profile to head will work22:58
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nathanyif it doesn't, i'll ping ben... i'm sure that there's a way to do a resource triple on something other than <a>22:59
Sterenok I didn't added the profile, I'll test22:59
Sterennathany: well adding the profile in the head doesn't change anything23:02
nathanyok, let me ping ben23:03
nathanyskip for now, i'd say -- i'm 99.999% sure there's a way to make it work23:03
SterenI didn't find it easily on the web, is there a real specification apart from http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/23:04
nathanySteren: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/CR-rdfa-syntax-20080620/23:05
nathanyi think you need to change href to resource for non-clickable links23:05
nathany(ie, anything but <a> tags)23:06
Sterenyes I think so23:06
Sterenyes let's use  "resource "23:09
nathanyok, great23:09
nathanythanks for pointing that out23:09
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jibotftobia is the other tech intern at Creative Commons and head of RPI Free Culture23:33
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