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| hdworak | hi | 09:55 |
|---|---|---|
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| * hdworak is going through the IRC logs about the validator | 10:44 | |
| hdworak | "paulproteus: Yes, yes, it's all good, we can pat ourselves on the back, but you should write your proposal and I should code some other stuff anyway. (-: " | 10:44 |
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| bigjohnto | libmil, cc: language libmil not recognized in Linux, what is the issue? | 11:31 |
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| hdworak | ok, it seems about 35 kB of logs are relevant | 11:44 |
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| luisv | is this the backchannel? | 11:45 |
| luisv | or is it elsewhere? | 11:45 |
| paulproteus | luisv, This is an ok backchannel, but note it's logged. | 11:45 |
| paulproteus | The interns have their own backchannel in #ccinterns. | 11:45 |
| luisv | my life is logged-y | 11:45 |
| paulproteus | I don't mind it being logged. (-: | 11:45 |
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| luisv | hey, BrianHP | 11:46 |
| BrianHP | And there we go. | 11:46 |
| paulproteus | (-: | 11:46 |
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| luisv | hrm | 11:47 |
| luisv | need to get the EFF interns in here | 11:47 |
| paulproteus | Agreed | 11:47 |
| mecredis | \/join #eff | 11:47 |
| mecredis | haha, no escapement | 11:47 |
| * luisv invites wendy seltzer | 11:48 | |
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| paulproteus | Man, I should really be eavesdropping on the wifi. | 11:50 |
| paulproteus | Oh, well, I'll let someone else get all the passwords. | 11:50 |
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| paulproteus | BTW, ettercap is nice, all, and tcpflow is pretty cool too. | 11:50 |
| paulproteus | Is this work vegan? | 11:52 |
| mecredis | haha | 11:52 |
| mecredis | what about drift net | 11:52 |
| paulproteus | (-: | 11:52 |
| greg-g | play nice paulproteus | 11:53 |
| * paulproteus frowns | 11:53 | |
| luisv | doing that at conferences is always good ;) | 11:53 |
| rejon | weak | 11:53 |
| paulproteus | wheat | 11:53 |
| luisv | no attribution URL? | 11:53 |
| rejon | whoa, caterina and stewart leaving flickr...bad timing for today ;) | 11:53 |
| luisv | nah, they'll just go start something else up ;) | 11:54 |
| BrianHP | interesting side-note: apparently even if copyright has lapsed in country-of-origin, you can still file commonlaw copyright claims in the US (assuming the work was published before 1972). So jurisdiction is fuzzy. | 11:54 |
| paulproteus | luisv, Probably better with a projector | 11:54 |
| paulproteus | Hmm, I have access to a project for five minutes during my talk... | 11:54 |
| luisv | paulproteus: certainly best with a projector | 11:54 |
| paulproteus | *a projector* | 11:55 |
| luisv | BrianHP: well, and you've got the problem of the jurisdiction of the author v. the jurisdiction of the user | 11:55 |
| rejon | http://www.mercurynews.com/businessheadlines/ci_9620819 | 11:55 |
| luisv | (with the practical reality that most consumer/users are effectively judgment-proof, esp. in a trans-jurisdiction context) | 11:55 |
| BrianHP | luisv: true. also, it mostly relates to sound recordings. | 11:55 |
| BrianHP | but regardless, it implies that "jurisdiction" isn't quite so clear-cut as we'd like it to be. but not sure if that's fixable on any level other than the legislative. | 11:57 |
| luisv | once you're talking about jurisdiction in that way the only level that can fix it is UN-level | 11:58 |
| luisv | which is one of the reasons I prefer the GPL-style no-porting approach | 11:58 |
| paulproteus | and loathes | 11:58 |
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| luisv | porting the licenses smells of lawyers trying to fix a theoretical problem that is unfixable | 11:58 |
| luisv | but I've ranted about that before ;) | 11:58 |
| paulproteus | luisv, That's what lawyers do! | 11:59 |
| * paulproteus hides | 11:59 | |
| luisv | paulproteus: which is why we should all be glad that RMS is not a lawyer | 11:59 |
| BrianHP | rant and flap our hands ineffectually? why yes, it's what you learn 1L year, right after torts. | 11:59 |
| nathany | ftobia: greg-g: Steren: et al: can you categorize live blog posts in the "techsummit" category? | 11:59 |
| nathany | lol | 11:59 |
| luisv | and that one of his split personalities is very pragmatic | 11:59 |
| ftobia | nathany: sure thing | 12:00 |
| luisv | I mean, I love Larry and all | 12:00 |
| luisv | but the sooner CC is run and dominated by content producers, rather than lawyers, the better for everyone | 12:00 |
| luisv | (he knows this, of course) | 12:00 |
| mlinksva_ | i agree with everything luisv says, though i haven't read any of this. is that deniability? | 12:00 |
| luisv | haha | 12:00 |
| luisv | we need to get mike carroll and jamie in here | 12:00 |
| luisv | does joi even do irc anymore? | 12:00 |
| luisv | there used to be #joi | 12:00 |
| paulproteus | luisv, Every few months he comes back to #joiito | 12:01 |
| rejon | i agree with luisv: preaching to the choir luisv...speak up more! | 12:01 |
| BrianHP | sanity check for my benefit, if y'all don't mind: basically css-style divs for content, not just form? | 12:01 |
| luisv | rejon: sure... just give me a job :) | 12:01 |
| paulproteus | BrianHP, Well, we'll see if CSS is enough (-: | 12:01 |
| rejon | luisv: i've tried, but you weren't done with law school! | 12:01 |
| * paulproteus secretly knows the answer | 12:01 | |
| luisv | BrianHP: it's not quite content | 12:01 |
| luisv | BrianHP: it describes a quality of the content | 12:01 |
| luisv | aka, the license | 12:01 |
| rejon | luisv: if you were avail., i'd give a kidney to have you at cc ;) | 12:02 |
| luisv | hrm, that might not be quite right either | 12:02 |
| rejon | ok, maybe my coffee | 12:02 |
| nathany | rejon: i have a tub of ice @ the office | 12:02 |
| luisv | nathany: you're very prepared | 12:02 |
| nathany | i try | 12:02 |
| rejon | yes, its part of the cc hazing ;) | 12:02 |
| nathany | you never know when you'll get to take one of rejon's kidneys | 12:02 |
| rejon | but, they are nearly shot, so maybe bluebook value low | 12:03 |
| BrianHP | kidneys or liver? | 12:04 |
| luisv | BTW, I am microblogging this at http://identi.ca/tieguy | 12:04 |
| nathany | isn't that just hair splitting? ;) | 12:04 |
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| JoiIto | anyone have a spare USB cable to connect my camera to my computer? | 12:05 |
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| paulproteus | JoiIto, yeah, one sec | 12:05 |
| JoiIto | thnx | 12:05 |
| mlinksva_ | i want to kick the dog | 12:05 |
| JoiIto | no more coffee for you mikey | 12:05 |
| BrianHP | That's mean. you want to TAG the dog. | 12:05 |
| paulproteus | mlinksva_, lol... | 12:05 |
| JoiIto | ?def mlinksva_ is a dog kicker | 12:06 |
| jibot | mlinksva_ is a dog kicker | 12:06 |
| luisv | sigh | 12:06 |
| paulproteus | ?karma luisv | 12:06 |
| jibot | luisv has 0 points | 12:06 |
| JoiIto | RDFa++ | 12:06 |
| JoiIto | ?karma RDFa | 12:06 |
| jibot | RDFa has 1 point | 12:06 |
| nathany | dog_tagging++ | 12:06 |
| nathany | ;) | 12:06 |
| mlinksva_ | ++RDFa | 12:07 |
| mlinksva_ | ?karma RDFa | 12:07 |
| jibot | RDFa has 1 point | 12:07 |
| mlinksva_ | awwww | 12:07 |
| rejon | whoa, http://identi.ca/tieguy | 12:07 |
| rejon | too bad no evan here :( | 12:07 |
| luisv | oh, yeah, I was about to say that | 12:07 |
| luisv | yeah, definitely too bad no evan | 12:08 |
| mlinksva_ | he could have sent us some vino | 12:08 |
| nathany | painstaking detail, even | 12:08 |
| luisv | need the mountain view travel guide | 12:08 |
| luisv | sigh | 12:08 |
| luisv | RDFa is so elegant | 12:08 |
| * paulproteus swoons | 12:08 | |
| luisv | and yet the bootstrapping problem is such a bitch | 12:09 |
| JoiIto | We should have the next meeting in Dublin | 12:09 |
| luisv | I am always in favor of meeting in dublin | 12:09 |
| rejon | oh great, getting emails from my dad's lame friends to try and get tickets to olympics through my chinese family! | 12:09 |
| luisv | I hate it when I recognize people at conferences and have no idea where or how I recognize them | 12:10 |
| rejon | tickets start at 10K...oops, wrong window...not identi.ca | 12:10 |
| luisv | no virginia today, BTW? | 12:10 |
| mlinksva_ | deprecated urls here | 12:10 |
| paulproteus | shhh | 12:11 |
| paulproteus | No one mention "url vs. uri" | 12:11 |
| luisv | mlinksva_: you're very pedantic | 12:11 |
| luisv | mlinksva_: have you ever considered law? | 12:11 |
| nathany | luisv: we're in california, not virginia; geography not required for lawyers? | 12:11 |
| mlinksva_ | absolutely not | 12:11 |
| mecredis | does anyone consider using purl a normative decision? | 12:12 |
| luisv | nathany: rutledge | 12:12 |
| mlinksva_ | otoh the lawyers i've talked to so far today were fine with being the "last" patent and copyright lawyers | 12:12 |
| mlinksva_ | i can be on board with that | 12:12 |
| paulproteus | Live Nude Lesbians | 12:12 |
| luisv | mlinksva_: the lawyers you've talked with today are a distinctly unusual minority | 12:12 |
| luisv | mlinksva_: not to mention they are tenured ;) | 12:12 |
| BrianHP | mlinksva_: because lawyers supposedly exist to fix problems, and it'd be great if there were no more problems :) | 12:12 |
| nathany | live demo -- this trick never works | 12:12 |
| mlinksva_ | not the ones i'm thinking of | 12:13 |
| rejon | great picture ben! | 12:13 |
| mlinksva_ | but minority nonetheless | 12:13 |
| rejon | see, mlinksva_ this is just *like* twitter here ;) | 12:13 |
| luisv | yeah | 12:13 |
| luisv | twitter is IRC without all the irritating 'interaction' | 12:13 |
| mlinksva_ | someone ask him about hash vs slash | 12:13 |
| luisv | oh, and better logging | 12:13 |
| rejon | ... | 12:13 |
| BrianHP | and 100% less whining about "why is it down?" | 12:14 |
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| luisv | dunno, you've never had your company depend on IRC and then have it go down ;) | 12:14 |
| nathany | luisv: experience speaking? | 12:14 |
| BrianHP | amortize it over the duration of downtime? | 12:14 |
| luisv | nathany: indeed ;) | 12:14 |
| * paulproteus is working on that, luisv | 12:14 | |
| nathany | (and no, no rutledge today) | 12:14 |
| luisv | hrm | 12:15 |
| luisv | interesting | 12:15 |
| luisv | so what does the CC anti-DRM language say, exactly? | 12:15 |
| luisv | how does it define DRM? | 12:15 |
| * luisv is rusty | 12:15 | |
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| rejon | luisv: this is a technical conference, not a "special counsel" conference | 12:15 |
| paulproteus | luisv, Technology that prevents using the license-granted freedoms | 12:15 |
| *** bse is now known as bovinity | 12:15 | |
| paulproteus | That's a summary; you can read the full legal code (-; | 12:15 |
| mlinksva_ | i have a post on that http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/8080 | 12:15 |
| mlinksva_ | When You Distribute or Publicly Perform the Work, You may not impose any effective technological measures on the Work that restrict the ability of a recipient of the Work from You to exercise the rights granted to that recipient under the terms of the License. | 12:16 |
| paulproteus | http://creativecommons.org:8080/weblog/entry/8080 | 12:16 |
| luisv | ah, effective technological measures | 12:16 |
| luisv | well done | 12:16 |
| luisv | doh | 12:16 |
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| rejon | ah...my love for irc has increased +100...tech conf. right? | 12:16 |
| bovinity | peanut gallery | 12:17 |
| luisv | rejon: jamie boyle != technologist | 12:17 |
| luisv | ;) | 12:17 |
| luisv | I mean, last I checked | 12:17 |
| paulproteus | $jamie_boyle \not \in technologists$ | 12:17 |
| rejon | is his the channel where when I talk, I can get fired? | 12:18 |
| rejon | s/his/this/ | 12:18 |
| paulproteus | That "extra link" is now enabled by default, so you don't have to click. | 12:18 |
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| nathany | rejon: yes | 12:19 |
| paulproteus | FOADster | 12:19 |
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| JoiIto | ?dev loaf | 12:19 |
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| luisv | hey, wseltzer | 12:19 |
| JoiIto | ?def loaf is http://loaf.cantbedone.org/ | 12:20 |
| jibot | loaf is the xml schema you desire & and that is not true & you may read more here: http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~pvg/loaf.txt & kung-fu also & has an offical wiki at http://postneo.com/postwiki/moin.cgi/LoafHome & Loaf Of A Friend & the new orange button & a collective pain in the royal ass & loaf makes brittabot emit a 'hehe' & slang & http://loaf.cantbedone.org/ | 12:20 |
| wseltzer | thanks luisv | 12:20 |
| luisv | wseltzer: you don't happen to know the email addresses for any of the EFF interns, do you? they should be here | 12:20 |
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| paulproteus | lol, loaf of a friend | 12:20 |
| luisv | (and the only one I know is the only one who didn't bring her laptop) | 12:20 |
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| rejon | jibot: ?help | 12:20 |
| wseltzer | luisv, sorry, I don't | 12:20 |
| JoiIto | ?help | 12:20 |
| luisv | we'll just grab them after the talk | 12:20 |
| *** iRobot is now known as CharelB | 12:21 | |
| luisv | shame tech talk slide decks can't be done well lessig-syle | 12:22 |
| rejon | yah, wseltzer, I believe the room/attendance is at capacity...unless you mean the irc channel ;) | 12:22 |
| BrianHP | luisv: is there a maximal amount of information that can be contained in a lessig-style presentation? (i.e. it has limited bandwidth?) | 12:23 |
| mecredis | rejon, she does | 12:23 |
| paulproteus | Christian Coalition == cc.org | 12:23 |
| mecredis | BrianHP, depends if it is an infinite presentation or | 12:23 |
| luisv | BrianHP: I'm not sure it works when you want to do detail | 12:23 |
| JoiIto | ?def RDFa is at rdfa.ifo and rdfa.info/wiki | 12:23 |
| jibot | RDFa is at rdfa.ifo and rdfa.info/wiki | 12:23 |
| mecredis | christian coalition | 12:23 |
| mecredis | haha | 12:23 |
| mecredis | yeah | 12:23 |
| JoiIto | ?def ccREL is at cc.org/projects/ccrel | 12:23 |
| jibot | ccREL is at cc.org/projects/ccrel | 12:23 |
| rejon | whitehouse.com | 12:23 |
| mlinksva_ | gonze! | 12:24 |
| luisv | mlinksva_: whoa | 12:24 |
| luisv | mlinksva_: that is gonze? | 12:24 |
| paulproteus | 410 | 12:24 |
| luisv | it is indeed | 12:24 |
| luisv | now I feel like we *have* met before | 12:24 |
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| jibot | smagdali is CTO of moo.com, amongst other things | 12:24 |
| luisv | though I have no idea where or when | 12:24 |
| luisv | smagdali: ! | 12:24 |
| smagdali | hi | 12:24 |
| paulproteus | HTTP 402 Payment Required | 12:24 |
| luisv | smagdali: (I am giving out my moo cards like candy here) | 12:24 |
| wseltzer | hi Steph! | 12:25 |
| luisv | (I heart moo) | 12:25 |
| smagdali | why thank you | 12:25 |
| smagdali | stef with an eff. | 12:25 |
| wseltzer | s/eph/eff/ | 12:25 |
| rejon | cool, speaking of @smagdali, kim from moo just gave me new bbc hookup | 12:26 |
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| nathany | go david | 12:28 |
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| rejon | david on the mic! core drupal dev...WMF contractor | 12:28 |
| luisv | (WMF?) | 12:29 |
| DanL- | wikimedia foundation? | 12:29 |
| DanL- | is there a place to hear the summit? | 12:29 |
| DanL- | Wow, that was barely English. | 12:29 |
| nathany | DanL-: nothing live -- video will be available | 12:30 |
| DanL- | Is there a URL via which I can listen to the summit? | 12:30 |
| DanL- | thanks nathany | 12:30 |
| nathany | liveblogging (-ish) @ http://techblog.creativecommons.org | 12:30 |
| luisv | DanL-: it is getting reported | 12:30 |
| DanL- | And where is the Summet being held, for that matter? | 12:30 |
| luisv | recorded, I mean | 12:30 |
| DanL- | Summit | 12:30 |
| nathany | Google Mountain View campus | 12:30 |
| BrianHP | DanL-: Google, in Mountain View | 12:30 |
| luisv | I'm also liveblogging-ish at http://identi.ca/tieguy/ | 12:30 |
| DanL- | cool ty | 12:30 |
| luisv | oops, no trailing slash: http://identi.ca/tieguy | 12:31 |
| BrianHP | Is it ever "trivial" to determine that something looks "spammy"? | 12:31 |
| rejon | DanL: correct on WMF | 12:31 |
| DanL- | rejon what's david's last name? | 12:31 |
| rejon | david strauss | 12:31 |
| nathany | BrianHP: if i know it's hosted @ geocities it is | 12:31 |
| rejon | not levi | 12:31 |
| DanL- | ok | 12:31 |
| rejon | ... | 12:32 |
| mlinksva_ | why, why? | 12:33 |
| rejon | i've got 10 questions ready btw | 12:33 |
| nathany | rejon: no time | 12:33 |
| nathany | ;) | 12:33 |
| *** UltraMagnus has quit IRC | 12:34 | |
| DanL- | Anyone know of ways to get involved with CC here in NY? | 12:34 |
| rejon | missed the joke nm | 12:34 |
| paulproteus | DanL-, Talk to mecredis! | 12:34 |
| DanL- | other than him :) | 12:34 |
| mecredis | DanL-, HEY YO | 12:35 |
| DanL- | what's up | 12:35 |
| DanL- | <-- dan from wikia | 12:35 |
| mecredis | OH YOU | 12:35 |
| mecredis | haha | 12:35 |
| mecredis | cc Salon NYC is tenatively July 21st, btw | 12:35 |
| DanL- | what's that? | 12:35 |
| mecredis | I think I mentioned it when i was in there | 12:35 |
| mecredis | just low key CC event | 12:35 |
| DanL- | I have a bad memory | 12:35 |
| mecredis | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Salon | 12:36 |
| DanL- | cool, I'll calendar it | 12:37 |
| JoiIto | He IS the Mike | 12:38 |
| mecredis | yeah, I'd love to have Wikia do a little present | 12:38 |
| mecredis | but we'll talk more | 12:38 |
| DanL- | be glad to | 12:39 |
| DanL- | sure | 12:39 |
| paulproteus | nathany, sound more EXCITED! | 12:40 |
| paulproteus | WHAM! | 12:40 |
| paulproteus | RDFa! | 12:40 |
| rejon | man, +5000 to rickroll the audience | 12:41 |
| rejon | FF3? | 12:41 |
| BrianHP | Hah. | 12:41 |
| greg-g | bad rejon | 12:42 |
| BrianHP | That is PHENOMENALLY disorienting on a big screen. | 12:42 |
| luisv | (go GNOME!) | 12:43 |
| luisv | oh, wait | 12:47 |
| luisv | is that john wilbanks? | 12:47 |
| luisv | or a different john? | 12:47 |
| * luisv has been zoning out | 12:47 | |
| bovinity | wilbanks | 12:47 |
| paulproteus | luisv, Wilbanks | 12:47 |
| rejon | that is | 12:47 |
| luisv | I need to grab him about open law journals | 12:47 |
| mecredis | hey, whats the curry in a hurry place? | 12:48 |
| paulproteus | Mehfil | 12:48 |
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| bovinity | mehfilindian.com | 12:48 |
| paulproteus | Hello LeahMacbook. | 12:48 |
| LeahMacbook | hiya | 12:49 |
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| BrianHP | Why can't everyone just go by the arxiv.org route | 12:50 |
| parkerhiggins | benadida: that was really good, thank you! | 12:50 |
| benadida | parkerhiggins: you're welcome! | 12:50 |
| rejon | 45 ppl in here...new high! | 12:52 |
| rejon | and it ain't even 420 | 12:52 |
| mecredis | benadida, I just did my thesis based on Semantic Media Wiki, so I got into making people drink the RDF koolaid | 12:52 |
| * paulproteus is proud to have helped with that | 12:52 | |
| mecredis | which is why I brought up the query point | 12:52 |
| rejon | mecredis: url to your thesis | 12:52 |
| rejon | ? | 12:53 |
| mecredis | www.causecaller.com | 12:53 |
| mecredis | http://www.causecaller.com/about.php for the Asheesh credit | 12:53 |
| mecredis | go SPARQL | 12:53 |
| * paulproteus opens just that page | 12:53 | |
| greg-g | I saw parens, was that lisp? | 12:53 |
| mecredis | no, its sparql | 12:53 |
| parkerhiggins | did anyone catch the google maps of the brain scan url? | 12:54 |
| greg-g | parkerhiggins: way too long/weird | 12:54 |
| mecredis | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARQL | 12:54 |
| BrianHP | No URL shown, just screencaps | 12:54 |
| paulproteus | (apply $'sparql data) | 12:54 |
| paulproteus | (apply #'sparql data) | 12:54 |
| paulproteus | (typo) | 12:54 |
| greg-g | mecredis: thanks | 12:54 |
| parkerhiggins | i thought there was a url across the bottom. | 12:54 |
| BrianHP | Might have missed it | 12:54 |
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| greg-g | parkerhiggins: there was, with @s *s and numbers | 12:54 |
| parkerhiggins | greg-g: i thought so. no wonder i didn't get it all done | 12:54 |
| parkerhiggins | down, rather | 12:55 |
| wseltzer | "there are these things called people that want to feel awake but don't want to feel jittery" :) | 12:55 |
| rejon | mecredis: paper too? | 12:55 |
| BrianHP | that seems...optimistic. Is RDFa/etc./etc. really inevitable? Seems to be an activation energy for these things, like a critical mass of sufficiently "important" web pages using them. | 12:55 |
| mecredis | rejon, you really want it? | 12:56 |
| mecredis | its horrid | 12:56 |
| mecredis | watch the presentation and then decide | 12:56 |
| mecredis | http://causecaller.com/wordpress/?p=10 | 12:56 |
| rejon | mecredis: thanks :) | 12:56 |
| parkerhiggins | BrianHP: I think what he said about the "important" web pages that produce html that people already insert in their pages (the Youtubes and CMSs) might tip it over | 12:56 |
| paulproteus | + Flickr | 12:57 |
| djdevvydev | Flickr alone would do it | 12:57 |
| DanL- | hey mecredis got any ideas for bloggers who would be interested in writing about http://heroreports.org ? | 12:57 |
| paulproteus | (I can dream) | 12:57 |
| mecredis | ah, I got interviewed ofr that last week | 12:57 |
| parkerhiggins | oh yeah, i forgot flickr. flickr is big too, of course. | 12:57 |
| parkerhiggins | imeem could be good, right? | 12:57 |
| DanL- | mecredis you did? | 12:57 |
| DanL- | for NPR? | 12:57 |
| mecredis | nah | 12:57 |
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| mecredis | for HR | 12:57 |
| mecredis | I hung out with Aaron's sister | 12:58 |
| mecredis | heh | 12:58 |
| DanL- | ah cool | 12:58 |
| nathany | "some interest" | 12:58 |
| mecredis | I can haz JPEG | 12:58 |
| wseltzer | I prefer FLAC | 12:59 |
| rejon | quick, get paulproteus a computer | 12:59 |
| mecredis | JoiIto, that's not the lens I was thinking of | 12:59 |
| parkerhiggins | wseltzer: do you really listen to flac regularly? | 12:59 |
| wseltzer | parkerhiggins: absolutely. I've ripped my entire collection to flac on my mythtv system | 13:00 |
| parkerhiggins | nice. | 13:00 |
| wseltzer | after all, I never wanted to have to swap all those CDs again! | 13:01 |
| rejon | http://creativecommons.org/projects/liblicense (even a url slide?) | 13:01 |
| parkerhiggins | you said you're on ubuntu before, did you rip in rubyripper or what? | 13:01 |
| mecredis | unfortunate amibiguity: http://www.library.yale.edu/~llicense/index.shtml | 13:01 |
| wseltzer | abcde, modified to put in my metadata choices | 13:01 |
| mecredis | I want to see some sexy CLI | 13:02 |
| wseltzer | (and to combine multi-movement pieces into a single track) | 13:02 |
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| mecredis | haha what a weird quit message | 13:02 |
| DanL- | mecredis you think heroreports is something boingboing would be interested in? | 13:02 |
| BrianHP | If you view quitting as escaping? | 13:02 |
| mecredis | sure | 13:02 |
| mecredis | just write it up and make it punchy | 13:03 |
| mecredis | and you have a shot | 13:03 |
| DanL- | if it were my thing, I would haha :) | 13:03 |
| BrianHP | Hmm...something's weird with heroreports on Safari | 13:03 |
| DanL- | I'll try for her | 13:03 |
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| mecredis | wooo | 13:03 |
| * mecredis cheers | 13:03 | |
| BrianHP | http://skitch.com/briancanfly/p64t/hero-reports | 13:04 |
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| hdworak | http://communia-project.eu/communiafiles/ws01p_ccREL%20The%20Creative%20Commons%20Rights%20Expression%20Language.pdf, p. 3, misspelling "an so on" | 13:06 |
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| DanL- | BrianHP yeek | 13:12 |
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| jibot | jgay is http://www.gnu.org/people/speakers.html#Gay | 13:14 |
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| hdworak | paulproteus: as all creative commons' licenses require an attribution - should the validator raise a warning when it finds license information w/o attribution information? | 13:18 |
| paulproteus | packages.debian.org/liblicense | 13:20 |
| paulproteus | wseltzer++ # mythtv | 13:21 |
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| paulproteus | mecredis, Yeah, but we have more PageRank than those guys. | 13:21 |
| paulproteus | (re: yale.edu liblicense) | 13:21 |
| mecredis | right | 13:21 |
| mecredis | uh | 13:21 |
| mecredis | maybe not? | 13:21 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, It would be nice, more like a suggestion, not a warning. | 13:21 |
| mecredis | : /. | 13:21 |
| mecredis | tea leaves | 13:21 |
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| hdworak | paulproteus: does cc:morePermissions expect a License description (valid RDF) or even a text/plain file? | 13:22 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, It expects just a URL/URI. | 13:22 |
| hdworak | no matter what the content, so that the validator does not analyse it? | 13:22 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, I don't understand your question. | 13:23 |
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| paulproteus | bovinity, What target do you think? | 13:23 |
| paulproteus | target="more_info_from_cclearn" ? | 13:23 |
| paulproteus | target="_new" or something? | 13:24 |
| bovinity | _top i guess | 13:24 |
| paulproteus | target="_top" sounds good. | 13:24 |
| paulproteus | "We put the data in the file" | 13:25 |
| paulproteus | except when we don't | 13:25 |
| paulproteus | c.f. XMP sidecar | 13:25 |
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| djdevvydev | can someone provide a quick list of which file formats allow XMP? (or is he about to?) | 13:26 |
| paulproteus | He probably will, but think JPEG plus the Adobe apps. | 13:26 |
| paulproteus | PDF, Photoshop | 13:26 |
| djdevvydev | i know various image file formats (PDF, PSD, JPG) | 13:27 |
| djdevvydev | anything else? ANY other media other than 2D image stuff? | 13:27 |
| djdevvydev | ANY time-based formats? | 13:27 |
| paulproteus | Like movie files? | 13:27 |
| paulproteus | I don't know, my guess is the Adobe movie stuff . | 13:27 |
| djdevvydev | or audio | 13:27 |
| mecredis | Premier Project files?? | 13:27 |
| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/XMP_Implementations | 13:27 |
| djdevvydev | #hdworak, thanks. | 13:28 |
| mecredis | I <3 the ARR on the bottom left of his slides | 13:28 |
| paulproteus | Also CC isn't just "non-commercial" | 13:28 |
| mecredis | well maybe not ARR | 13:28 |
| paulproteus | Though this goes back to what JoiIto was saying at the start. | 13:28 |
| mecredis | yes | 13:28 |
| mecredis | which was well put | 13:28 |
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| paulproteus | Hey, I've made Custom Panel! | 13:29 |
| hdworak | one pastes an URL to the work, the validator downloads the URL and starts analysing it; when it spots a URL to the license inside; does it start to analyse the license URL itself (by downloading it and analysing it contents) or does it simply look-up whether it matches predefined cc's licenses URLs or not; if it matches, it displays information about the particular license, but does not retrieve it in order to do it - the information about various license | 13:29 |
| hdworak | an URL = a URL | 13:29 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, Looks it up in a local pile of RDF files | 13:29 |
| mecredis | how does XMP <=> RDFAa ? | 13:30 |
| mecredis | that question might be a category mistake | 13:30 |
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| paulproteus | They're both ways of encoding RDF. | 13:30 |
| djdevvydev | um, I think XMP expresses RDF triples in RDF/XML ... is that right? | 13:30 |
| hdworak | RDFa is for XHTML | 13:30 |
| paulproteus | That's exactly the point I should have tried to make in my talk - liblicense reads from files what slick browsers read from the web. | 13:30 |
| luisv | XMP is in-file, right? | 13:30 |
| hdworak | RDFa can be translated to RDF triples, too | 13:31 |
| paulproteus | luisv, Normally, yes. | 13:31 |
| rejon | that xmp toolkit's bsd license allowed exempi to happen which allowed liblicense to happen...FYI | 13:31 |
| paulproteus | Well, liblicense is LGPL (-; | 13:31 |
| hdworak | paulproteus: therefore what happens if someone points out to a license URL http://www.example.com/mylicense.rdf | 13:31 |
| paulproteus | And it dlopen()s exempi so it doesn't even have to be license-compatible with exempi. | 13:32 |
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| paulproteus | hdworak, One option is forget it for now, it's not a normal CC license URI at least. | 13:32 |
| mecredis | yeah | 13:33 |
| mecredis | that makes sense | 13:33 |
| djdevvydev | #hdworak, the cc: namespace defines the permits/allows "predicate" and a bunch of "objects" for what can be permitted | 13:33 |
| djdevvydev | conceivably this could be the basis of a general purpose license description language | 13:33 |
| djdevvydev | but who knows if it would get adopted outside of cc | 13:33 |
| hdworak | okay, if we limit the scope of the analysis to cc's licenses only, should we parse local RDFs or can we retrieve the license data from other means like Python dictionaries, .txt or whatever? (which one of these should be easier?) | 13:34 |
| paulproteus | Parse the local RDFs for now; we're working on making a nicer Python API for getting CC license info out of our RDF files. | 13:34 |
| hdworak | cf. "License properties are used by Creative Commons itself to define the authoritative specifications of the licenses we offer. Other organizations are free to use these components for describing their own licenses. Such licenses, although related to Creative Commons licenses, would not themselves be Creative Commons licenses nor would they be endorsed necessarily by Creative Commons." | 13:34 |
| paulproteus | (That API is called cc.license and ftobia will work on it eventually) | 13:35 |
| djdevvydev | well, I think CC won't change a given license without issuing a new URL for it, right? | 13:35 |
| paulproteus | djdevvydev, That's right | 13:35 |
| BrianHP | Compare birds with what was in the lower-left of the last slide deck. | 13:35 |
| paulproteus | The legal code is fixed, typos and all. | 13:35 |
| djdevvydev | so there's not really any need to have a generalized parsing engine for cC licenses really | 13:35 |
| djdevvydev | just hard-code behavior based on the URL | 13:35 |
| djdevvydev | (that's what I'd do for now, anyway) | 13:35 |
| paulproteus | djdevvydev, Well, we add translations, though. | 13:35 |
| hdworak | ok, what happens when 4.0 shows up? one manually adds its support to the validator? | 13:35 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, No, hold up a sec | 13:36 |
| paulproteus | CC publishes RDF files for each license. | 13:36 |
| paulproteus | We keep them up to date. | 13:36 |
| mlinksva_ | compuserve.com, unlimited internet for $17.95/month, two months free! | 13:37 |
| mecredis | What's a torrent? | 13:37 |
| paulproteus | The validator will pull its info on which URLs are current, and what they mean, from there. | 13:37 |
| paulproteus | from lessig import britney_spears_at_any_price | 13:38 |
| hdworak | when someone takes cc's officiallicenseinfo.rdf and uploads THIS FILE to example.com/mylicense.pdf and then points out (as XHTML's license) to http://example.com/mylicense.rdf: 1) does the validator bother? 2) is this a legal mean to release the work under cc's license? | 13:38 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, Since we keep them up to date it a cron job that does "svn update" or "git pull" will keep those RDF files up to date for you. | 13:38 |
| wseltzer | he means, of course, that he downloaded some songs 3+ years ago... | 13:38 |
| mecredis | Wolf Eyes got tagged as Christian Rap for me very recently | 13:38 |
| paulproteus | (is that the statute of limitations or something?) | 13:38 |
| BrianHP | of course. | 13:38 |
| wseltzer | yes :) | 13:38 |
| paulproteus | wseltzer, OH, very good to know (-: | 13:39 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, They won't do that, basically. (1) I think the validator shouldn't bother, and (2) Sure, it's valid, but it's pretty weird. | 13:39 |
| paulproteus | I've had 2h of sleep so I might be slightly less sane than usual. | 13:40 |
| hdworak | ok, so back to the official cc's URLs, is there any tool to be used to facilate this RDF parsing (of license files NOT work files) - any tool by cc maybe? | 13:40 |
| paulproteus | DeCSS music is "illegal files"? | 13:41 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, Yes, there's a half-baked cc.license module in our git. | 13:41 |
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| rejon | change pitch of voice randomly | 13:41 |
| paulproteus | You can use it for now, but it's pretty half-baked. I think it's best to try to use it where possible, but if you need to pull info from the RDF files yourself just do that; there's a git repository for them. | 13:42 |
| hdworak | ok, thank you | 13:43 |
| luisv | (huh, I'd never considered the statute of limitations on illegal file downloading) | 13:43 |
| luisv | (lawyers++) | 13:43 |
| hdworak | how to express a dual-license in RDFa? | 13:43 |
| paulproteus | (that's not something you'll hear from luisv very often) | 13:43 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, Just express two license attributes. | 13:43 |
| hdworak | put two rel="license" links or cc:morePermission | 13:44 |
| hdworak | ok | 13:44 |
| benadida | yes, two links in HTML, each with rel="license" | 13:45 |
| Steren | is songbird using liblicense ? | 13:46 |
| paulproteus | Steren, No, they're doing it themselves with the help of TagLib. | 13:47 |
| hdworak | what is the advantage of creativecommons.org over web.resource.org with regard to namespace URL? | 13:48 |
| hdworak | (aside of the fact that the latter is deprecated) | 13:48 |
| paulproteus | We get control, that's all. | 13:48 |
| rejon | lucas rules | 13:49 |
| luisv | yay for web-based slides | 13:49 |
| rejon | I've got a good project to work on...re-implement songbird as firefox extensions | 13:49 |
| rejon | I can actually partially fund it | 13:49 |
| paulproteus | Re-implement UNIX as a Firefox extension | 13:49 |
| luisv | rejon: the word coming to mind is 'why' | 13:50 |
| rejon | actually, paulproteus: how closely do they track ff trunk? | 13:50 |
| mecredis | reimplement UNIX as a MediaWiki extension | 13:50 |
| greg-g | doi for songs | 13:51 |
| paulproteus | ed2k:// ? | 13:51 |
| rejon | luisv: I can't answer publicly | 13:51 |
| luisv | rejon: 'interesting' | 13:51 |
| luisv | I admit I sort of dispair of XUL/firefox 'platform' ever becoming a real, reusable technology platform | 13:52 |
| luisv | but the converse of that ('everything is a plugin') also seems busted | 13:52 |
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| rejon | man, I'm stoked about FF3, seems better to use the FF and add the plugs after...look at licensing and support page too | 13:53 |
| rejon | luisv: possibly...but all sold on and how many do you have? | 13:54 |
| rejon | main reason I got off epiphany | 13:54 |
| luisv | oh, I have a lot of them | 13:54 |
| luisv | and ditto on epiphany | 13:54 |
| paulproteus | I use Epiphany as my "browser ghetto". | 13:54 |
| paulproteus | It's the one with cookies enabled globally. | 13:54 |
| luisv | but I use ones that sensibly belong in my browser | 13:54 |
| luisv | and there are, in fact, things that do not sensibly belong in my browser ;) | 13:54 |
| mecredis | *if* they think about it | 13:55 |
| mecredis | I'm skeptical of that | 13:56 |
| wseltzer | you could spend a bunch of time talking to your lawyer about it too... | 13:56 |
| mecredis | but they don't know anything | 13:56 |
| mecredis | oops, wrong window | 13:56 |
| rejon | lucas...leaving the dream of speaking mind publicly... | 13:56 |
| mecredis | heh | 13:56 |
| rejon | s/leaving/living/ | 13:56 |
| wseltzer | (re: applying links to song files) | 13:56 |
| greg-g | (frbr the songs!) | 13:57 |
| mecredis | ah | 13:57 |
| paulproteus | lol, greg-g! | 13:57 |
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| luisv | mecredis: people do think about it; but not well/deeply | 13:58 |
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| mecredis | yes, ignore me | 13:58 |
| mecredis | heh | 13:58 |
| paulproteus | /ignore mecredis | 13:58 |
| mecredis | nice | 13:59 |
| mecredis | http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/06/kid-rock-boycot.html | 13:59 |
| mecredis | He advises fans to download his music for free from P2P services, although he himself doesn't have to. "I don't steal things," he told the BBC. "I'm rich." As for everyone else, he says, "Download it illegally, I don't care. I want you to hear my music so I can play live." | 13:59 |
| rejon | hahahaha | 14:00 |
| luisv | file 'pax romana' under things I did not expect to see on a slide today | 14:01 |
| BrianHP | I'm wondering which version of pax romana he's talking about. The kind in which the government comes down on your HOUSE if you harm a citizen? | 14:01 |
| paulproteus | I want to see a "Portable SAP install" on that USB key, mlinksva_. | 14:02 |
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| mecredis | paulproteus, see the HOPE e-mail? | 14:05 |
| paulproteus | mecredis, The one from you? | 14:05 |
| mecredis | nah | 14:05 |
| mecredis | Mitch | 14:05 |
| paulproteus | I saw a follow-up from Mitch. | 14:05 |
| * paulproteus nods | 14:05 | |
| mecredis | OK | 14:05 |
| mecredis | I'll write something | 14:06 |
| mecredis | and show you | 14:06 |
| paulproteus | He says, "Tell me what you want I love you I will fight for you and give you what you would love and deserve (maybe not deserve since you're late but who cares) love Mitch" | 14:06 |
| mecredis | precisely. | 14:06 |
| paulproteus | mecredis, Oh, I only saw the one before this: | 14:06 |
| paulproteus | Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:04:13 -0700 | 14:06 |
| paulproteus | From: Mitch Altman <mitch@CornfieldElectronics.com> | 14:06 |
| mecredis | running backwards through a .. | 14:07 |
| paulproteus | (er, oops, maybe he didn't want that email address published) | 14:07 |
| mecredis | haha | 14:07 |
| paulproteus | F yeah re: Friday or Sunday | 14:07 |
| mecredis | ok | 14:07 |
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| paulproteus | Hi stevel! | 14:08 |
| stevel | hey :) | 14:08 |
| mecredis | I <3 Mike's Desktop folder called "crap" | 14:08 |
| paulproteus | lol, mecredis! | 14:08 |
| bovinity | everyone should have one | 14:08 |
| mecredis | crucial | 14:08 |
| mecredis | "black hole" | 14:09 |
| paulproteus | "interesting thoughts about all three of the presentations" | 14:09 |
| mecredis | haha | 14:09 |
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| mecredis | nice photo | 14:09 |
| luisv | that was free software, not CC | 14:09 |
| luisv | quit taking our credit ;) | 14:09 |
| paulproteus | "I am not some knuckle-dragging Neanderthal, I'm hip to this new open source stuff" | 14:10 |
| * mecredis worries about where Mike is going with this | 14:10 | |
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| paulproteus | Even if I worry, I love. | 14:11 |
| ajbrooks | so are the links on the ccLearn map supposed to open up in new windows? | 14:11 |
| paulproteus | ajbrooks, I think they're supposed to open in the main window now. | 14:11 |
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| paulproteus | (do they?) | 14:12 |
| ajbrooks | hmm.. not for me :) | 14:12 |
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| paulproteus | ajbrooks, shift-reload? | 14:12 |
| paulproteus | I fear Varnish cache. | 14:12 |
| bovinity | laern map is fine for me | 14:13 |
| bovinity | but i didnt have it cached | 14:13 |
| paulproteus | Numa Numa Yay! | 14:13 |
| ajbrooks | yep, it was cached in my browser | 14:13 |
| ajbrooks | sweeet | 14:13 |
| hdworak | paulproteus: if one uses the old deprecated method (full RDF) and describes permissions that are in conflict with the license he/she chosen itself - do we issue a warning? | 14:15 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, Heck yes. | 14:15 |
| hdworak | but if he/she corrects that, he/she still uses deprecated means regardless | 14:16 |
| hdworak | so do we write what RDF code should be there in place or do we simply recommend RDFa equivalent w/o going into details? | 14:16 |
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| hdworak | is, say, cc-by-nc 1.0 superseded by cc-by-nc 2.0? if so, do we also recommend switching to the latest available version? | 14:19 |
| benadida | if you're doing primarily HTML, you really should go with RDFa only. | 14:19 |
| luisv | this registry stuff rubs me the wrong way | 14:20 |
| luisv | I have a hard time putting my finger on why | 14:20 |
| luisv | probably just instinctive distrust of centralization | 14:20 |
| qubitsu | agreed | 14:20 |
| BrianHP | Well, there's an essential tension between centralization and access | 14:20 |
| mecredis | hence the Soviet reference | 14:20 |
| BrianHP | right? | 14:20 |
| luisv | BrianHP: well, pragmatic access, yeah | 14:21 |
| luisv | findability | 14:21 |
| BrianHP | That's my point | 14:21 |
| luisv | yeah | 14:21 |
| luisv | tension between decentralization and discoverability | 14:21 |
| BrianHP | You don't want a gigantic database that is TECHNICALLY searchable, but in practicality won't be used by anyone | 14:21 |
| benadida | more than findability, also records of past statements. | 14:21 |
| BrianHP | (see, e.g., patent database) | 14:21 |
| wseltzer | agreed, central registries are a messy hack | 14:21 |
| luisv | they are a messy hack, but of course the alternative is to let our Kind Hosts hold all the centralized power | 14:22 |
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| luisv | or seems to be the best alternative we've got ATM | 14:22 |
| stevel | nathany: ping | 14:22 |
| wseltzer | right, they might be better than the alternative | 14:22 |
| rejon | whoa, mike made a pop culture reference...its a momentous day!!!!!! | 14:22 |
| stevel | i've got a whole bunch of Songbird stickers - think anyone would mind if i put 'em out on the back table? | 14:22 |
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| rejon | build it, and they will register (blog that!) | 14:22 |
| nathany | stevel: pong | 14:22 |
| nathany | sounds great | 14:23 |
| nathany | stevel: ^^ | 14:23 |
| luisv | man | 14:23 |
| stevel | nathany: cool, thanks :) | 14:23 |
| luisv | I miss having a laptop I could sticker | 14:23 |
| BrianHP | Then again, there is some value to centralization, we know this, and if you give it a sort of underlying, persistent tilt towards open access... | 14:23 |
| JoiIto | nathany, totally wasn't listening to Mike | 14:23 |
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| luisv | also, stevel, the farting apple is all kinds of meta-awesome | 14:23 |
| stevel | luisv: hehe. thanks :) i didn't bring any fart stickers, but if you give me your address i can mail you some | 14:23 |
| luisv | stevel: no, I'm a lame lawyer now, I can't sticker my laptops :/ | 14:24 |
| stevel | luisv: one word: FOREHEAD | 14:24 |
| BrianHP | luisv: depends on where you work. | 14:24 |
| stevel | (not necessarily yours, mind you) | 14:24 |
| wseltzer | luisv: I sticker my battery | 14:24 |
| luisv | FOREHEAD FARTING | 14:24 |
| wseltzer | as a compromise | 14:24 |
| luisv | why didn't I think of that before | 14:24 |
| luisv | wseltzer: I did get the penguin laser tattoed into the laptop | 14:24 |
| luisv | it is very subtle | 14:24 |
| luisv | seemed like a nice compromise | 14:24 |
| wseltzer | luisv, nice | 14:25 |
| luisv | urgh | 14:26 |
| luisv | double-whammy | 14:26 |
| luisv | centralize registry /and/ content provision | 14:27 |
| luisv | in one place, no less | 14:27 |
| paulproteus | Sure, so what if you keep things decentralized, as they are? | 14:27 |
| hdworak | paulproteus: please answer | 14:27 |
| luisv | oh, not sure that it is better | 14:27 |
| luisv | certainly we don't have a pragmatic alternative ATM | 14:28 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, Sorry, missed the question. | 14:28 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, I see it now. | 14:28 |
| luisv | maybe this is my inner anarchist breaking out ;) | 14:28 |
| nathany | paulproteus: apparently i spoke too soon | 14:28 |
| luisv | I blinked and missed the URL | 14:28 |
| luisv | anyone have it? | 14:28 |
| BrianHP | Well, it's a question of intent and purpose, right? Flickr + YouTube end up developing gigantic copyright libraries... | 14:28 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, We say "There is a conflict between the RDF and the URL; you should just use this RDFa". | 14:28 |
| paulproteus | Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on | 14:28 |
| paulproteus | /dev/sda1 7.7G 7.7G 64K 100% / | 14:28 |
| hdworak | is, say, cc-by-nc 1.0 superseded by cc-by-nc 2.0? if so, do we also recommend switching to the latest available version? | 14:28 |
| nathany | hdworak: yes, its superseded | 14:29 |
| paulproteus | We suggest it, but there's nothing "wrong" with it if it's properly marked-up. | 14:29 |
| rejon | mike needs a wikipedia entry | 14:30 |
| paulproteus | assert "crap" in current_slide | 14:30 |
| stevel | metacrap? | 14:31 |
| stevel | lol | 14:31 |
| mecredis | another "crap" reference from mike | 14:31 |
| paulproteus | ISBN! | 14:31 |
| luisv | why yes, mike, monopolies are bad | 14:32 |
| luisv | news at 11 ;) | 14:32 |
| rejon | are his slides online? | 14:32 |
| rejon | mike braindump overload | 14:32 |
| nathany | rejon: if they're not, they will be | 14:32 |
| nathany | stevel: can you send me a URL to your slides or a PDF version? | 14:33 |
| stevel | nathany: definitely. i'll email you a PDF | 14:33 |
| JoiIto | what does PORP stand for again Wendy? | 14:33 |
| paulproteus | nathany, You have a link to my slides as PDF, right? | 14:33 |
| nathany | thanks | 14:33 |
| nathany | paulproteus: yeah, thanks | 14:33 |
| wseltzer | JoiIto: can't recall! | 14:34 |
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| wseltzer | Google thinks it's Partial Ossicular Replacement Prosthesis ... | 14:34 |
| JoiIto | I can't either... and when you google for ICANN PORP, all I can find is: http://www.cafepress.com/joiito.182874488 | 14:34 |
| wseltzer | :) | 14:35 |
| nathany | mike is not a lawyer | 14:35 |
| stevel | nathany: sent | 14:35 |
| greg-g | minal | 14:35 |
| nathany | thx | 14:35 |
| rejon | marcus just had idea to start a fund to send mike to lawschool! better than lessig running for congress | 14:35 |
| JoiIto | he was brought up by wild lawyers though | 14:35 |
| paulproteus | lol, thanks JoiIto, but next time keep it safe for work! | 14:35 |
| JoiIto | an can speak to lawyers | 14:36 |
| rejon | feral lawyer is mike | 14:36 |
| wseltzer | JoiIto, aha: President’s Operations Review Panel. | 14:36 |
| stevel | you guys should get him business cards with that as his title | 14:36 |
| JoiIto | wseltzer++ | 14:37 |
| nathany | Feral Counsel | 14:37 |
| bovinity | i | 14:37 |
| bovinity | i'm on it! | 14:37 |
| rejon | yah, we still need those cc shirts: CC... (backside) IANAL................(smaller text) bitches | 14:38 |
| luisv | I have a hard time seeing Mike tolerating law school | 14:38 |
| luisv | he'd get about 3 weeks in and decide it was bullshit and that he had better things to do with his time ;) | 14:38 |
| mecredis | feral lawyer hahah | 14:38 |
| nathany | luisv: i doubt it'd take that long | 14:38 |
| luisv | nathany: true | 14:38 |
| paulproteus | luisv, I believe the word is 'crap' | 14:39 |
| luisv | subcrap | 14:39 |
| wseltzer | and Feral Counsel is only a typo away from General Counsel | 14:39 |
| paulproteus | Now, now. | 14:39 |
| stevel | wseltzer: that's a helluva typo | 14:39 |
| luisv | this slide Hurts My Head | 14:39 |
| rejon | or could have a shirt that has (front) cc (back) (checkbox) I AM A LAWYER (checkbox) I am a feral lawyer (IAAFL) | 14:39 |
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| * hdworak timeout? | 14:39 | |
| * paulproteus has no idea, hdworak | 14:39 | |
| hdworak | :) | 14:39 |
| stevel | hdworak: looks like you netsplit | 14:39 |
| * greg-g nods | 14:40 | |
| hdworak | ok, thanks :) | 14:40 |
| rejon | mike is camming it! | 14:40 |
| stevel | quick. someone take a photo of it! | 14:40 |
| stevel | and put it in the next preso | 14:40 |
| greg-g | dang | 14:40 |
| rejon | tim_hwang got it | 14:40 |
| greg-g | wel done | 14:40 |
| greg-g | +l | 14:40 |
| paulproteus | tim_hwang++ | 14:40 |
| stevel | nice job | 14:41 |
| tim_hwang | i'll be here all week | 14:41 |
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| rejon | mlinksva_: put your slides up and pop up that url...too much info!!!! | 14:41 |
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| DanL- | That shirt wourld rock | 14:45 |
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| Steren | unpopular content difficult to find, I would totally say the contrary | 15:23 |
| luisv | arrgh | 15:23 |
| luisv | you would think | 15:23 |
| luisv | that in a room full of people who worship lessig | 15:24 |
| luisv | *someone* would know that slides with more than five words on them are almost always a mistake | 15:24 |
| BrianHP | that people would be better with the slideshows? | 15:24 |
| BrianHP | Seriously. | 15:24 |
| benadida | disagree on slides with more than five words, but agree that more images and less text is a good thing. | 15:25 |
| mecredis | err, free asn in speech I think | 15:26 |
| luisv | benadida: deeply technical talks like yours fall into the 'almost always' exception | 15:26 |
| luisv | this is not one of those talks | 15:26 |
| BrianHP | back to the bandwidth of slideshow methods conversation. | 15:26 |
| JoiIto | hmm... did I just get a continuum named after me? | 15:27 |
| BrianHP | (isn't authenticated P2P a bit of an oxymoron?) | 15:27 |
| luisv | JoiIto: apparently | 15:27 |
| BrianHP | The Ito Copyright Continuum? | 15:28 |
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| rejon | Yah, need a law too like Joi's Law | 15:29 |
| mecredis | curious about these revocable licenses | 15:30 |
| mecredis | stuff | 15:30 |
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| DanL- | revocable licenses rock. | 15:30 |
| JoiIto | Robert's head: http://www.flickr.com/photos/joi/2590321617/ | 15:32 |
| DanL- | why did revocable licenses just come up, btw | 15:33 |
| rejon | in 2000! whoa, rob is ahead of the curve ;) | 15:33 |
| rejon | love those noank's charts and diagrams | 15:33 |
| JoiIto | I wasn't sure, but wasn't he talking about a time limit on the commercial license half? | 15:34 |
| rejon | y | 15:34 |
| djdevvydev | yup,i was | 15:34 |
| DanL- | So it'd expire after n years and turn into a non-com? | 15:34 |
| DanL- | or turn into a revocable com? | 15:35 |
| djdevvydev | welllll, i'm not a lawyer | 15:35 |
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| djdevvydev | we hear that a lot around here | 15:35 |
| DanL- | that's OK | 15:35 |
| DanL- | IANANAL | 15:35 |
| DanL- | :-) | 15:35 |
| djdevvydev | noank's license to distribute the content in our system is time-limited | 15:35 |
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| djdevvydev | with autorenew | 15:36 |
| mlinksva_ | rejon, i made a pop culture reference? | 15:36 |
| mlinksva_ | i don't know about that | 15:36 |
| mlinksva_ | add "nuke" to whatever i said | 15:36 |
| DanL- | (I doubt my IANANAL acronym will ever catch on, sadly.) | 15:36 |
| rejon | mlinksva_: build it, and they will come (field of dreams) | 15:37 |
| UltraMagnus | uh..... what does that stand for? | 15:37 |
| DanL- | djdevvydev so what happens when the license expires? | 15:37 |
| DanL- | UltraMagnus -- I am not a not-a-lawyer | 15:37 |
| djdevvydev | (btw, yes, my slides were way too wordy ... sucks to figure that out when you're standing in front of a room full of people) | 15:37 |
| rejon | who is ultra-magnus (only a general and not optimus prime might I add) | 15:37 |
| UltraMagnus | DanL-: why not just IAAL | 15:37 |
| DanL- | UltraMagnus that's no fun. | 15:38 |
| mlinksva_ | hmm, had no idea | 15:38 |
| parkerhiggins | using that pendulum metaphor is an interesting choice... | 15:38 |
| mlinksva_ | "we figured out how to do metadata" -- rob kaye | 15:38 |
| mlinksva_ | hahahhahahahahahhahahaha | 15:38 |
| UltraMagnus | rejon: eh, just someone that idles in here a lot and uses a CC licence | 15:38 |
| mlinksva_ | but I <3 musicbrainz | 15:39 |
| DanL- | djdevvydev I recently advocated for a time-lapse CC license which slowly becomes CC-BY over n months | 15:39 |
| djdevvydev | danl, i believe that the license remains in effect for end-users who acquired the content | 15:39 |
| DanL- | but I don't think that's the same thing | 15:39 |
| DanL- | ok | 15:39 |
| djdevvydev | no, not the same, but interesting | 15:39 |
| DanL- | djdevvydev http://dlewis.net/2008/05/13/copyright-and-the-duty-to-maintain/ | 15:40 |
| * stevel would rather be in austria now | 15:41 | |
| mecredis | hrm | 15:42 |
| mecredis | what would be the difference between this and CC's 'exploration' ? | 15:42 |
| rejon | cool, made contact with litl.com friends on cc stuff | 15:42 |
| DanL- | what is "this"? | 15:42 |
| mecredis | registered commons? | 15:42 |
| mecredis | s/?// | 15:43 |
| DanL- | what's CC's exploration? | 15:43 |
| mecredis | http://creativecommons.org/press-releases/entry/8306 | 15:43 |
| DanL- | What's the difference b/w that and my idea? | 15:43 |
| rejon | any thoughts? http://creativecommons.org/policies | 15:43 |
| wseltzer | TM infringement -- unless it's licensed | 15:44 |
| mecredis | yeah | 15:45 |
| mecredis | via iCommons? | 15:45 |
| mecredis | : / | 15:45 |
| mlinksva_ | if yr talking about registeredcommons, they have a tm agreement with cc | 15:45 |
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| wseltzer | good to hear, mlinksva_ | 15:46 |
| wseltzer | 'cause it's no fun to be a TM bully | 15:46 |
| hdworak | bye | 15:46 |
| DanL- | sure it is :) | 15:46 |
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| * DanL- kids (kind of.) | 15:46 | |
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| luisv | ugh | 15:47 |
| luisv | tm | 15:47 |
| luisv | BrianHP: I really need to get with Jishnu about GNOME's tm issues | 15:47 |
| DanL- | I've been bullied today, though | 15:47 |
| * luisv has sucked on that front | 15:47 | |
| luisv | how does the moral rights field work with CC? | 15:48 |
| rejon | sounds like I need to know the background on RC tm agreement ;) | 15:48 |
| mlinksva_ | field? | 15:48 |
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| mlinksva_ | oh i was looking at the screen | 15:48 |
| luisv | is that only in conjunction with ported licenses? | 15:48 |
| mlinksva_ | i mean am not | 15:48 |
| rejon | as in dreams...pop culture man | 15:48 |
| mlinksva_ | how could there be a field? | 15:48 |
| BrianHP | luisv: he's my contact on this stuff. Want his e-mail address? | 15:48 |
| luisv | mlinksva_: I had the same thought | 15:48 |
| DanL- | oh man, registered commons is cool | 15:48 |
| luisv | BrianHP: I've got it, he and I had dinner last week :) | 15:48 |
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| luisv | he's GNOME's pro bono counsel :) | 15:49 |
| luisv | mlinksva_: can we ask questions of these panelists? | 15:49 |
| BrianHP | awesome. didn't know that. | 15:49 |
| mlinksva_ | luisv: yes | 15:49 |
| ajbrooks | mlinksva_: next talk you're going to have to mention the Hoff.. cc licenses will turbo boost you over legal obstacles | 15:49 |
| mlinksva_ | if not now then in the plenary | 15:49 |
| luisv | cool | 15:50 |
| luisv | someone has to ask the 'moral rights field?' q | 15:50 |
| mlinksva_ | http://www.slideshare.net/mlinksva/cc-tech-summit-digital-copyright-registry-landscape | 15:50 |
| BrianHP | luisv: that made me raise an eyebrow as well. | 15:51 |
| luisv | yeah | 15:52 |
| luisv | yay for non-interoperability ;) | 15:52 |
| luisv | yay for license proliferation | 15:52 |
| mlinksva_ | cc has overall been a force for non and even reversed proliferation | 15:53 |
| mlinksva_ | fyi :) | 15:53 |
| wseltzer | yay for copyright law non-compatibility | 15:53 |
| BrianHP | wseltzer: yay? | 15:53 |
| wseltzer | sorry, left the sarcasm tag off | 15:53 |
| mlinksva_ | public domain is interoperable, end of story. science commons is ahead of the game. | 15:54 |
| DanL- | mlinksva_ what is slide 27? | 15:54 |
| wseltzer | (or was trying to increase employment opportunities for my law students) | 15:54 |
| DanL- | a regstration example? | 15:54 |
| BrianHP | I was agreeing with you, sarcasm and all. sort of that movie-like, weak, flag-waving "yaaaay..." trailing off at the end. | 15:54 |
| luisv | mlinksva_: oh, I know | 15:54 |
| mlinksva_ | it is a funny example from library of congress | 15:54 |
| mecredis | what is that image | 15:54 |
| luisv | mlinksva_: though I have my concerns about porting, as you know | 15:54 |
| wseltzer | creepy! | 15:54 |
| mlinksva_ | search for lessig there | 15:54 |
| DanL- | haha | 15:55 |
| DanL- | cool | 15:55 |
| nathany | "lawyers are living happy days" | 15:55 |
| DanL- | wseltzer you have any NYC-based students who want an internship? I need a couple (and westlaw access) | 15:55 |
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| mecredis | DanL-, you want law students? | 15:56 |
| DanL- | yeah | 15:56 |
| DanL- | I'll probably need other things too | 15:56 |
| mecredis | I have a good list for that if you want to solicit via e-mail | 15:56 |
| DanL- | you know, Wikia Search could be the registry. | 15:56 |
| * DanL- muses. | 15:56 | |
| DanL- | See slide 32 | 15:56 |
| DanL- | In fact, I really like that idea. | 15:56 |
| wseltzer | DanL-, you should check out Northeastern's co-op program | 15:56 |
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| DanL- | I will | 15:57 |
| DanL- | thanks | 15:57 |
| DanL- | mecredis sure, send along | 15:58 |
| luisv | DanL-: what do you need NY-based lawyers for? | 15:58 |
| DanL- | not sure I'll use it but can't hurt | 15:58 |
| mecredis | well its the freeculture nyu list | 15:58 |
| DanL- | luisv all sorts of stuff | 15:58 |
| mecredis | that I administer | 15:58 |
| mecredis | so ... | 15:58 |
| DanL- | I should sub | 15:58 |
| DanL- | what's the sub url? | 15:58 |
| mecredis | yeah, its moderated | 15:58 |
| mecredis | http://www.freeculturenyu.org/e-mail-list/ | 15:58 |
| luisv | why two hashes? | 15:59 |
| mecredis | "first rule of government spending -- why have one when you get two for twice the price" | 16:00 |
| DanL- | contrarian desires | 16:00 |
| wseltzer | conflicts with "don't repeat yourself" | 16:00 |
| luisv | (and how do you handle derivatives? that was an old noank problem) | 16:00 |
| BrianHP | Pick your favorite? | 16:00 |
| BrianHP | It seems like the goal here is to tag a given moment in a work's evolution as "safe" | 16:00 |
| BrianHP | so regardless of where derivatives go, if you base your work on this one, it's okay. | 16:00 |
| mecredis | e.g. not a terrorist file | 16:01 |
| djdevvydev | incidentally the "strong" noank license has a "share-alike" sort of provision for derivatives | 16:01 |
| BrianHP | heh. That's my understanding, anyway, but what do I know? | 16:01 |
| djdevvydev | it's been a bit of a hard sell for major content owners though | 16:02 |
| djdevvydev | that is to say, a non-starter. | 16:02 |
| djdevvydev | *sigh* | 16:02 |
| DanL- | can someone pointme to the noank license? | 16:02 |
| djdevvydev | leah, do you have a URL for that? is there a publicly-accessible version? | 16:03 |
| DanL- | and ... is there a big movement/demand for a CC-licensed content registry or is it ad hoc and scattered? | 16:03 |
| luisv | the number of parties on this panel suggests that 'scattered' is a good adjective | 16:05 |
| luisv | but possibly I'm reading too much into it | 16:05 |
| mlinksva_ | DanL-: I would say scattered, not a "movement" | 16:05 |
| DanL- | awesome. | 16:06 |
| DanL- | I want to join. | 16:06 |
| mecredis | just in case you work for the Associated Press | 16:06 |
| DanL- | :) | 16:06 |
| DanL- | hah | 16:06 |
| DanL- | a) you know who I work for | 16:06 |
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| DanL- | b) hah. | 16:06 |
| mecredis | DanL-, just talking about a presentation happening here | 16:06 |
| rejon | ok, so lets build it: http://creativecommons.org/projects/registry | 16:06 |
| DanL- | oh. | 16:06 |
| mecredis | http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/11/04/attributor-launches-service-to-track-copyright-infringement-across-the-web/ | 16:06 |
| rejon | listings: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Content_Registries | 16:06 |
| rejon | attributor is cool...the stuff I've seen behind closed doors is pretty mind blowing | 16:07 |
| mecredis | yeah, it is interesting | 16:07 |
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| rejon | "take actions" is the key phrase | 16:08 |
| rejon | automated __________ . (fill in the blank) | 16:08 |
| *** NoAnker is now known as Leahb | 16:08 | |
| mecredis | yeah | 16:08 |
| wseltzer | somehow last time I heard from Attributor, it wasn't re: enforcing CC licenses | 16:08 |
| Leahb | the noank license isn't up online, but i can send it to anyone who is interested... | 16:08 |
| * mecredis has visions of a rabid robot spewing DMCA notices | 16:08 | |
| DanL- | Leah could you send it to me? dan@wikia-inc.com | 16:09 |
| Leahb | yep | 16:09 |
| DanL- | thanks | 16:09 |
| Leahb | . | 16:11 |
| luisv | hrm, no aaron here | 16:11 |
| luisv | are they going to go out of beta at any point? | 16:11 |
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| DanL- | who are they? :) | 16:12 |
| luisv | openlibrary, sorry | 16:12 |
| * DanL- 's IRC skills are rusty. He last used it regularly in 1999. | 16:12 | |
| luisv | I miss IRC | 16:12 |
| rejon | http://openlibrary.org | 16:12 |
| rejon | luisv: me too! | 16:12 |
| DanL- | how active is this channel typically? | 16:12 |
| wseltzer | me three! | 16:13 |
| luisv | DanL-: not ;) | 16:13 |
| rejon | like ~20 ppl | 16:13 |
| DanL- | damn | 16:13 |
| *** nathany has quit IRC | 16:13 | |
| luisv | wseltzer: bah, you don't have a real job, you could still be in IRC if you wanted ;) | 16:13 |
| luisv | 'teaching' | 16:13 |
| luisv | 'writing' ;) | 16:13 |
| luisv | 'thinking' | 16:13 |
| DanL- | Well, glad to have found it on a good day, w/thanks to JoiIto | 16:13 |
| luisv | (can you tell I'm jealous) | 16:13 |
| bovinity | it's usually us in the office, instead of talking out loud | 16:13 |
| wseltzer | luisv: take my writing, please | 16:13 |
| luisv | haha | 16:13 |
| luisv | yeah, I'm not very jealous of that part | 16:14 |
| BrianHP | And grading exams? | 16:14 |
| wseltzer | BrianHP: yecch | 16:15 |
| luisv | man | 16:15 |
| luisv | I really should be looking for jamendo content | 16:15 |
| stevel | jamendo rocks | 16:16 |
| luisv | but I have so little time to look for new content generally | 16:16 |
| * stevel is a huge fan | 16:16 | |
| stevel | luisv: their recommendation service should be good when they get it up | 16:16 |
| BrianHP | luisv: do you do what I do, and just use pandora for that? | 16:16 |
| stevel | that'll help a lot with finding new content that you are likely to like | 16:16 |
| DanL- | wseltzer what ever happened with your DMCA battle w/the NFL? | 16:16 |
| luisv | BrianHP: honestly, mostly I just don't listen to new music unless a friend personally recommends it | 16:16 |
| luisv | stevel: do you happen to know if they have an ETA on that? | 16:16 |
| stevel | luisv: september timeframe i think | 16:16 |
| wseltzer | DanL-: after two takedowns and putbacks, NFL desisted | 16:17 |
| luisv | ah, cool | 16:17 |
| luisv | stevel: are you guys integrating it? | 16:17 |
| DanL- | nice | 16:17 |
| stevel | luisv: they do a bunch of web-side integration to make their pages work well in Songbird | 16:17 |
| stevel | we just met on Monday to talk about other future integrations | 16:17 |
| rejon | desisted...what a word | 16:17 |
| luisv | ah, cool | 16:17 |
| mecredis | wow | 16:17 |
| mecredis | that is cool | 16:17 |
| wseltzer | this "level of confidence" is interesting. who's acting as insurer? | 16:18 |
| * stevel loves those ads | 16:18 | |
| DanL- | are you all at the summit? | 16:18 |
| mecredis | DanL-, yes | 16:18 |
| stevel | should get pierre to show people the electronica one that they were forced to take down | 16:18 |
| mecredis | haha | 16:18 |
| DanL- | damn | 16:19 |
| DanL- | we need a NYC summit so I don't have to fly | 16:19 |
| DanL- | not that I don't fly | 16:19 |
| DanL- | but that I'm prohibitively lazy | 16:19 |
| mecredis | DanL-, I'll work on it | 16:19 |
| DanL- | ty | 16:19 |
| DanL- | I'm glad to present:-) | 16:19 |
| wseltzer | you can't fly without ID after Saturday... | 16:19 |
| DanL- | doesn't bother me really | 16:20 |
| luisv | mecredis: yeah, we demand NYC events | 16:20 |
| DanL- | Can't do a lot of stuff w/o ID | 16:20 |
| luisv | preferably before May '09 ;) | 16:20 |
| DanL- | luis you a student? | 16:20 |
| luisv | DanL-: columbia law after time as a linux desktop developer and a year as Sr. Geek In Residence at Berkman Center | 16:20 |
| DanL- | awesome, what are you doing for the summer? | 16:21 |
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| davidstrauss | fine | 16:21 |
| luisv | working at a Real Law Firm in menlo park; last summer I was in the Red Hat general counsel's office | 16:21 |
| davidstrauss | :-) | 16:21 |
| davidstrauss | rejon: hi | 16:21 |
| DanL- | very nice | 16:21 |
| luisv | (last summer was a blast... this one is good, but different) | 16:21 |
| DanL- | I'll not dare ask what firm | 16:21 |
| DanL- | but I hope they take you out to lunch | 16:21 |
| rejon | davidstrauss: what is url to test openlibrary + wmf testing.... | 16:21 |
| DanL- | often | 16:21 |
| luisv | Orrick Herrington Sutcliffe | 16:21 |
| rejon | i guess ok to post here | 16:21 |
| DanL- | ah nice | 16:21 |
| mecredis | DanL-, they let him come today | 16:21 |
| luisv | so much lunch do I eat | 16:22 |
| davidstrauss | http://openlibrary.fkbuild.com/w/index.php/Main_Page | 16:22 |
| luisv | and yeah, they let me come today, so I can't complain | 16:22 |
| davidstrauss | that has the current OL + MediaWiki integration | 16:22 |
| DanL- | It's a good firm | 16:22 |
| DanL- | You should tell them that we favor outside counsel which understands CC and GFDL issues | 16:22 |
| luisv | I will do so- that nugget can count as my bizdev for the day ;) | 16:23 |
| rejon | click edit and click the far right OL button above text entry then type a search to see magic | 16:23 |
| luisv | who are your current outside counsel, if I can ask? | 16:23 |
| DanL- | depends on the matter | 16:23 |
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| DanL- | and we're a startup still so money is a big factor | 16:24 |
| luisv | <nod> | 16:24 |
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| luisv | depending on the matter, we cut startups slack on billing | 16:24 |
| DanL- | that's good to know | 16:24 |
| luisv | assuming we think they'll grow big enough to do more paid deals with us later | 16:24 |
| DanL- | I have nothing in the pipeline now | 16:24 |
| DanL- | yeah | 16:25 |
| luisv | realistically, the startups I want to deal with (like you guys) may not be good orrick targets, which may be a problem for me in the future | 16:25 |
| luisv | we'll see | 16:25 |
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| luisv | arggh | 16:30 |
| luisv | microphones | 16:30 |
| luisv | DanL-: even if mecredis fails, we should grab a drink at some point after I'm back in NY | 16:31 |
| mecredis | hahah | 16:31 |
| mecredis | dude July 21st | 16:31 |
| mecredis | CC Salon NYC | 16:31 |
| luisv | I'll be in SF until Aug. 1st, but thanks for thinking of me ;) | 16:31 |
| DanL- | sure | 16:32 |
| mlinksva_ | forefend? | 16:32 |
| mlinksva_ | wow this is a question phrased by a lawyer | 16:32 |
| DanL- | I'm sure there will be plenty of such events | 16:32 |
| luisv | mlinksva_: hehe | 16:32 |
| * DanL- would never use "forefend." | 16:32 | |
| luisv | mlinksva_: though a good question nevertheless | 16:32 |
| mlinksva_ | absolutely | 16:32 |
| ftobia | i cannot believe that is a word. | 16:32 |
| BrianHP | it's the phrase "heaven forfend," which is kind of shakespearean | 16:33 |
| mecredis | yah | 16:33 |
| qubitsu | first result for wikipedia search for "forfend": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_Abraham | 16:33 |
| djdevvydev | hey, i want to go to the CC Salon NYC ... a URL? | 16:33 |
| mlinksva_ | which leads to Philosophy in around 10 clicks of the first significant link | 16:33 |
| wseltzer | so another problem with the extreme level of copyright's statutory damages: no one wants to offer bonding services against mistake or misidentification | 16:34 |
| qubitsu | wseltzer: might change if orphan works bill passes? | 16:34 |
| mlinksva_ | wseltzer: isn't that what prelinger offers? | 16:35 |
| mlinksva_ | in addition to media access? | 16:35 |
| DanL- | wseltzer what if the mis-ID is (a) algorithmic or (b) user-gen? | 16:36 |
| tim_hwang | wseltzer: agreed! such a big unanswered question in all these models | 16:36 |
| stevel | is mediabrainz's acousticfingerprinting thing proprietary or OSS? | 16:37 |
| wseltzer | mlinksva_ didn't recall that about Prelinger | 16:37 |
| stevel | musicbrainz rather | 16:37 |
| stevel | guess so | 16:37 |
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| stevel | (proprietary that is) | 16:37 |
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| mecredis | stevel, not sure | 16:38 |
| stevel | mecredis: http://musicbrainz.org/doc/AcousticFingerprint | 16:38 |
| mlinksva_ | i'm probably wrong | 16:38 |
| wseltzer | DanL- mistaken takedwon is the flip side, I suppose. I was thinking of mistaken assertions of copyright authorization | 16:38 |
| BrianHP | Bless transparency. | 16:38 |
| stevel | looks like it's proprietary, but they link to some other open source fingerprinting schemes | 16:38 |
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| mlinksva_ | luisv: going to ask about moral rights field? | 16:38 |
| DanL- | oh okay | 16:38 |
| DanL- | I'm at a marked disadv here, not being @ the summit | 16:39 |
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| jibot | rejon is a killer MC from staten island and is the 10th member of the wutang clan and http://www.rejon.org/ | 16:39 |
| luisv | (I should have kept the mic) | 16:39 |
| mecredis | government ideologies? | 16:40 |
| stevel | hrm. that seems subjective | 16:40 |
| mecredis | :/ | 16:40 |
| stevel | one man's fascism is another man's ideal | 16:40 |
| luisv | is that actually still a CC license at that point? | 16:40 |
| mecredis | luisv, good god no | 16:40 |
| stevel | luisv: seems overly restrictive | 16:40 |
| BrianHP | So it's a catchall field for "whatever else you want to control"? | 16:40 |
| stevel | BrianHP: sounds like it | 16:40 |
| BrianHP | I'm deeply discomfited by that. | 16:40 |
| tim_hwang | man -- putting those unstandarized free field rules seems to restore the original problem of opaqueness | 16:41 |
| stevel | BrianHP: likewise | 16:41 |
| mecredis | ... proliferation | 16:41 |
| BrianHP | Well this was a problem I was pondering way back when at the beginning of the talk | 16:41 |
| BrianHP | With RDFa | 16:41 |
| stevel | what if my "moral right" is that i don't want 5'9" asian males weighing 150lbs to use my photo? | 16:41 |
| stevel | (that's me, btw) | 16:41 |
| BrianHP | You need to create a semantic language of fields, and rights, and whatever. | 16:41 |
| stevel | luisv: fine. 155lbs | 16:42 |
| stevel | i saw you sizing me up | 16:42 |
| BrianHP | and how can you ensure that that's closed. | 16:42 |
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| wseltzer | yes, what's to validate that the free-form doesn't contradict the fixed fields | 16:42 |
| BrianHP | Well, MusicBrainz has an interesting idea. | 16:42 |
| mecredis | MusicBrainz is awesome | 16:42 |
| BrianHP | That there are certain "certified" fields that are passed out into the world | 16:42 |
| BrianHP | and "best song ever" doesn't. | 16:42 |
| BrianHP | oops. not musicbrainz. but you get what I mean. | 16:43 |
| DanL- | Leahb - My last name is Lewis | 16:43 |
| * DanL- apologizes. | 16:43 | |
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| * mecredis finds a place in the shade for a nap | 16:43 | |
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| jibot | naufragio is Gavin Baker and www.gavinbaker.com and an alumnus of uf.freeculture.org | 16:45 |
| tvol | the cc techblog lives! | 16:45 |
| naufragio | have you guys seen http://www.proyectoagrega.es/ ? | 16:46 |
| naufragio | english description here: http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/2008/06/spanish-oer-portal-launches.html | 16:46 |
| naufragio | (since when is jibot in #cc?) | 16:46 |
| naufragio | anyway: ^^ seems like big CC news -- a big gov. project to develop an OER platform, all using BY-NC-SA | 16:47 |
| naufragio | ciao! | 16:48 |
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| luisv | what is ben using as a slide template? | 17:06 |
| BrianHP | don't know, but it ain't bad for web-based. | 17:06 |
| stevel | except for cutting off the bottom line | 17:06 |
| BrianHP | That's because they have the search field up | 17:07 |
| tim_hwang | freedomdefined.org | 17:07 |
| luisv | tim_hwang: yeah, mako should be here | 17:07 |
| tim_hwang | luisv true story | 17:08 |
| mecredis | but FD is not really "copyright 2.0" | 17:09 |
| luisv | mako always makes everything better | 17:09 |
| luisv | (FD?) | 17:09 |
| mecredis | freedom defined | 17:09 |
| luisv | oh | 17:09 |
| luisv | FD | 17:09 |
| luisv | right | 17:09 |
| luisv | I hate to say it | 17:09 |
| mecredis | I mean I don't think its supposed to be <=> copyrigh 2.0 | 17:09 |
| luisv | but sometimes I think we need to get better at (c) 1.0 before we start on 2.0 | 17:09 |
| luisv | so much education to be done | 17:09 |
| wseltzer | break the frame! | 17:10 |
| BrianHP | Yeah, but how anarchistic do you want to be? | 17:10 |
| luisv | the tech, without the education, doesn't do as much | 17:10 |
| luisv | BrianHP: well, not so much the anarchy bits, but just that it seems like lots of people use CC (and to a lesser extent GPL) without really grokking the issues | 17:10 |
| luisv | hence the problems with people using flickr stuff crazily, etc. | 17:10 |
| tim_hwang | lots of definition problems | 17:11 |
| luisv | wseltzer: it's not a useful frame breaking; doesn't illuminate, I don't think | 17:11 |
| luisv | just complains | 17:11 |
| BrianHP | I hear you. But swing it the opposite direction. Maybe show that the tech is SO FAR beyond the scope of extant law that we NEED new education. | 17:11 |
| tim_hwang | "noncommerical" | 17:11 |
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| wseltzer | luisv: I meant state our goals in terms of "freedom" and figure out what copyright supports that | 17:12 |
| luisv | ah | 17:12 |
| luisv | yeah | 17:12 |
| BrianHP | I'm also uncomfortable with the dichotomy between commercial and noncommercial. | 17:12 |
| luisv | wseltzer: yeah, but that's a question for the philosopher-kings, not the technologists | 17:12 |
| luisv | ;) | 17:12 |
| BrianHP | luisv: why can't technologists BE philosopher-kings? | 17:12 |
| BrianHP | (I want that on my business card) | 17:13 |
| luisv | (and this is a technology summit, I suppose) | 17:13 |
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| luisv | technologist/philosopher-king | 17:13 |
| BrianHP | exactly | 17:13 |
| mecredis | "tolerated use" | 17:13 |
| luisv | and more seriously, I think actually that having author-producers do that sort of thinking is ideal, rather than ivory-tower types like you and I | 17:14 |
| wseltzer | we have principles of freedom of expression and sharing; even technologists can refer to them | 17:14 |
| paulproteus | nathany, Hope nobody missed me *too* badly. | 17:14 |
| nathany | paulproteus: lol | 17:14 |
| nathany | we always miss you ;) | 17:14 |
| luisv | but again, this probably isn't the right place for it | 17:14 |
| nathany | (ack, battery near dead) | 17:15 |
| mecredis | wseltzer, I'm kind of missing your point here | 17:15 |
| mlinksva_ | http://www.hfkdocs.com/ | 17:16 |
| luisv | (who is this dude?) | 17:16 |
| mlinksva_ | a good one | 17:16 |
| mlinksva_ | see above | 17:16 |
| luisv | ah, cool | 17:16 |
| wseltzer | mecredis: I think the point has strayed | 17:16 |
| mecredis | :) | 17:16 |
| nathany | a lawyer and an academic! | 17:17 |
| BrianHP | yep | 17:17 |
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| nathany | aren't you listening, luisv? | 17:17 |
| BrianHP | Senior partner at Latham | 17:17 |
| paulproteus | mecredis, Take a photo of Joi! | 17:17 |
| luisv | nathany: listening, dreaming | 17:17 |
| luisv | something like that | 17:17 |
| nathany | lol | 17:17 |
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| paulproteus | rofl re: mecredis diving into action | 17:17 |
| tim_hwang | mercredis: high fives | 17:17 |
| mecredis | got one good one | 17:18 |
| mecredis | but no cable | 17:18 |
| mecredis | JoiIto, can I borrow your cable? | 17:18 |
| paulproteus | mecredis, Great! | 17:18 |
| rejon | back to basics: copyright 2.0 (kill copyright)...talk! | 17:18 |
| BrianHP | hah | 17:18 |
| mecredis | JoiIto, never mind | 17:18 |
| mlinksva_ | rejon++ | 17:18 |
| luisv | (you can use it... as long as you take care to strip the wikipedia mark) | 17:19 |
| BrianHP | Seriously, though, commercial vs. noncommercial, how sharp is that line? | 17:19 |
| luisv | sharp as a butter knife | 17:19 |
| luisv | (e.g., is use as hold music for a company's phone system commercial?) | 17:20 |
| BrianHP | well, Muzak, right? | 17:21 |
| luisv | (it isn't being sold to the end user (the person on hold)) | 17:21 |
| luisv | but yeah, can be sold to the company | 17:21 |
| BrianHP | Is it that there's value SOMEWHERE in the chain of commerce? | 17:21 |
| luisv | but if you define 'commercial' as 'displacing a product that is sold' you're pretty broad | 17:21 |
| BrianHP | that seems unreasonably broad. | 17:21 |
| luisv | right. | 17:21 |
| BrianHP | right. | 17:21 |
| luisv | wait | 17:21 |
| luisv | did he just say interwoven | 17:22 |
| luisv | interwoven makes the baby lawyer jesus cry | 17:22 |
| mlinksva_ | interwoven. amazing | 17:22 |
| mlinksva_ | they have a big building though | 17:22 |
| rejon | hahaha | 17:22 |
| rejon | man, I forgot how great irc is...geez... | 17:23 |
| nathany | yes, he said interwoven and vignette | 17:23 |
| BrianHP | sah-weet. | 17:23 |
| BrianHP | IRC is awesome for this sort of thing | 17:23 |
| * greg-g hugs IRC | 17:23 | |
| BrianHP | Can you hug a protocol? | 17:24 |
| djdevvydev | #mecredis: can u send info on the CC Salon in NYC? would like to drop in | 17:24 |
| mecredis | djdevvydev, not finalized yet | 17:24 |
| mecredis | it will be by PM friday | 17:24 |
| djdevvydev | will find it on the CC wiki? | 17:25 |
| mecredis | but should be 6:30pm Monday July 21st | 17:25 |
| mecredis | in downtown NYC | 17:25 |
| greg-g | BrianHP: of course you can, I hug imaginary things all the time | 17:26 |
| * mecredis forgot how much of a pain photos in linux are | 17:28 | |
| BrianHP | When dealing with web-mediated information, is there ever NOT a need for a standard? | 17:29 |
| wseltzer | mecredis: what do you use? | 17:30 |
| mecredis | fspot | 17:30 |
| mecredis | but no likey CR2 files | 17:30 |
| wseltzer | ufraw isn't bad | 17:30 |
| mecredis | will check it out | 17:31 |
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| BrianHP | IJAL? | 17:35 |
| luisv | http://www.dmpf.org/ <- that digital media project? | 17:35 |
| stevel | shoot - i was trying to reply to an email and missed the context of what songbird came up in | 17:35 |
| stevel | luisv: ? | 17:35 |
| stevel | (apologies) | 17:35 |
| luisv | stevel: getting metadata-consuming tools in the hands of users | 17:35 |
| luisv | hence creating incentives for publishers to use it | 17:36 |
| djdevvydev | as a client-side tool that is conceivably compliant with new metadata standards | 17:36 |
| djdevvydev | doh | 17:36 |
| luisv | 'use it'->create metadata | 17:36 |
| stevel | thanks | 17:36 |
| luisv | (and prior to that it was just the chicken-egg problem generally) | 17:37 |
| luisv | (god, this is a dead crowd) | 17:37 |
| djdevvydev | what is dmpf? | 17:38 |
| stevel | i've apparently missed out on 3 firedrills at work today, so i'm trying to pitch in now | 17:38 |
| djdevvydev | i mean, i followed the link | 17:38 |
| stevel | so i'm sort of tuned out at the moment :-( | 17:38 |
| luisv | djdevvydev: good question | 17:38 |
| djdevvydev | but looking for a summary | 17:38 |
| luisv | stevel: happens to all of us in the mixed-world | 17:38 |
| djdevvydev | weird mixed bag of participants: BBC, Fraunhofer, Peking U | 17:39 |
| rejon | which projects will survive, which will die....registry cage match...predictions? | 17:39 |
| rejon | by end of 2008 | 17:40 |
| luisv | now I have to figure out how to get pictures off my crackberry | 17:41 |
| luisv | rejon: all will die; they are too far ahead of their time | 17:41 |
| BrianHP | It sounds like we're shrinking the universe of "what registries can do" down to almost nothing. | 17:41 |
| rejon | here is my summary: kill copyright, openlibrary.org will survive over next 5 years, the web *is* a registry, use RDFa/ccREL | 17:42 |
| rejon | (oh wait, that is from my brain in a personal capacity) | 17:42 |
| luisv | web_is_a_registry++ | 17:42 |
| BrianHP | So, what, just add in an rdf: function to google? | 17:42 |
| luisv | hehe | 17:42 |
| BrianHP | (e.g. google search for rdf:by-sa-na) | 17:43 |
| luisv | rdf:dc:license:by-sa-na? | 17:43 |
| rejon | well, yahoo's searchmonkey supports RDFa...talking with google and hopefully will get RDFa support added | 17:43 |
| luisv | (you don't have nearly enough :s, I know that) | 17:43 |
| mlinksva_ | web_is_a_registry++ | 17:43 |
| luisv | rejon: reaaaally? | 17:43 |
| JoiIto | haven't we discussed the possibility of creating front-ends for the copyright office? | 17:43 |
| luisv | mlinksva_: so, wait | 17:43 |
| rejon | but...the idea is to have good solid standard, let the market solve the rest...play the time game, invest in countries with liberal copyright laws | 17:43 |
| rejon | or rather lax enforcement | 17:44 |
| BrianHP | well, while the end result of those two (liberal law/lax enforcement) is the same, it gets troubling when you cross international borders. | 17:44 |
| rejon | solve the rest with lots of guidance ;) | 17:44 |
| luisv | BrianHP: think big | 17:44 |
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| luisv | we're better at this than your puny national governments ;) | 17:44 |
| BrianHP | Don't mind me, IJAL (who's been reading too much about commonlaw copyright, which is going to hang over us, barring statutory movement, until 2067 -- yeesh) | 17:45 |
| luisv | mlinksva_: but yeah, I thought you were pro-specialized-registry? | 17:45 |
| rejon | luisv: yes (way above) | 17:46 |
| luisv | rejon: because I really, really want to search more than flickr when I'm looking for pictures for my blog | 17:46 |
| mlinksva_ | luisv: the web is made of specialized proto-registries (in part) | 17:46 |
| luisv | (needless to say, looking for CC-BY or CC-SA) | 17:47 |
| rejon | each domain is a proto-registry...should just have the directy index visible for each site | 17:47 |
| luisv | lgonze is a troublemaker ;) | 17:48 |
| rejon | luisv: try the http://images.yahoo.com (searched flickr)...want to get/expose cc licensing switches on that | 17:48 |
| rejon | yah, lgonze is great | 17:48 |
| tim_hwang | nice | 17:48 |
| luisv | rejon: w/out cc licensing switch, not worth it | 17:48 |
| tim_hwang | straight shot | 17:49 |
| rejon | crap, maybe it works | 17:50 |
| rejon | haven't tried with query string | 17:50 |
| luisv | oh, interesting | 17:50 |
| luisv | query string would work | 17:50 |
| luisv | s/would/could/ | 17:50 |
| luisv | hrm | 17:50 |
| luisv | I need to sit down with one of you guys and grok CC+ | 17:50 |
| luisv | b/c I got called away during nathany's earlier talking | 17:51 |
| luisv | and I'm completely lost on CC+ | 17:51 |
| rejon | cc license + another agreement (obviously ppl. getting it wrong, which is also a problem) | 17:51 |
| BrianHP | luisv: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CCPlus | 17:51 |
| rejon | look at the graphic on the top | 17:51 |
| rejon | basically dual licensing | 17:51 |
| rejon | or multiple-licensing ;) | 17:51 |
| luisv | hrm | 17:53 |
| stevel | interesting | 17:53 |
| luisv | maybe I'm confusing it with cczero | 17:53 |
| luisv | which I'm also not clear on | 17:53 |
| BrianHP | proliferation of various CC's seem to push back against their wide adoption | 17:53 |
| BrianHP | this is suppsed to be facially clear, right? | 17:53 |
| luisv | it has never been facially clear ;) | 17:54 |
| paulproteus | luisv, Feel free to talk to me about CC+ and CC0, but they're "fairly straightforward". | 17:54 |
| tim_hwang | yeah, proliferation is the big danger | 17:54 |
| BrianHP | But that was the point of the friendly generator at cc.org | 17:54 |
| rejon | BrianHP: hopefully its better than without CC ;) but yes, still hard for many to explain even simple CC 6 licenses | 17:55 |
| BrianHP | It seems like the largest problem is that we can have a full-day conference and still ask questions like "is noncommercial licensing even good?" how is this going to be widely adopted without having basic answers to these questions? | 17:55 |
| luisv | well | 17:56 |
| paulproteus | BrianHP, "It's easy" | 17:56 |
| BrianHP | (which I guess goes back to luisv's old education point. | 17:56 |
| paulproteus | The people who like NC licensing can do it, and the ones who don't like it can just not use it. | 17:57 |
| luisv | well, and I think to Joi's point at the very, very beginning of separating the technical and the advocacy | 17:57 |
| paulproteus | Ta-da, we satisfy everyone by letting them satisfy themselves. | 17:57 |
| paulproteus | luisv, Totally. | 17:57 |
| luisv | this whole discussion might be more useful if the advocacy/philosophy stuff were ruled out of bounds | 17:57 |
| paulproteus | Zing. | 17:57 |
| luisv | we need to solve/fix metadata, regardless of whether or not we have NC or not NC or whatever | 17:57 |
| paulproteus | Precisely. | 17:57 |
| rejon | yet | 17:58 |
| rejon | ;) | 17:58 |
| wseltzer | and we're not really talking about metadata | 17:58 |
| luisv | never will | 17:58 |
| luisv | it is implicit | 17:58 |
| rejon | opensource zero | 17:58 |
| luisv | the + is implicit in GPL | 17:58 |
| paulproteus | luisv, I disagree | 17:58 |
| paulproteus | It's definitely *not* implicit in the Linux kernel, for example. | 17:58 |
| mlinksva_ | paulproteus: great point | 17:59 |
| luisv | if there is a single copyright holder, the + is implicit. If there is no single copyright holder, then '+' is problematic anyway | 17:59 |
| luisv | unless you have reached some sort of agreement between the copyright holders... in which case you've basically got a single copyright holder | 17:59 |
| JoiIto | The definition in the license: "You may not exercise any of the rights granted to You in Section 3 above in any manner that is primarily intended for or directed toward commercial advantage or private monetary compensation. The exchange of the Work for other copyrighted works by means of digital file-sharing or otherwise shall not be considered to be intended for or directed toward commercial advantage or private monetary compensation, provided th | 17:59 |
| JoiIto | ere is no payment of any monetary compensation in connection with the exchange of copyrighted works." | 17:59 |
| JoiIto | isn't THAT uncertain... I think it's more what the community feels is "exploitation" I think... | 17:59 |
| wseltzer | a bit of noodling on metadata: is there interest in a way to tag works with statements about their copyright status, and attributions of those statements? | 17:59 |
| JoiIto | anyway, we should have a separate conference on NC ;-) | 18:00 |
| paulproteus | lol, JoiIto! | 18:00 |
| paulproteus | Charge for attendance this time. | 18:00 |
| luisv | wseltzer: XMP + RDF/a? | 18:00 |
| luisv | well, + should be 'and/or' | 18:00 |
| rejon | omg, NC conference is when I take vacation ;) | 18:00 |
| wseltzer | luisv, sure | 18:00 |
| JoiIto | NC-CON 2008!! | 18:00 |
| BrianHP | Bye all! thanks so much! | 18:01 |
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| rejon | CC-NCon 2008 | 18:01 |
| stevel | later folks | 18:01 |
| stevel | thanks | 18:01 |
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| paulproteus | No, thank *you* stevel! | 18:01 |
| wseltzer | and perhaps the attribution of the statement is implicit in the authorship of the site where it's posted? | 18:01 |
| stevel | :) | 18:01 |
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| paulproteus | Bye Bye | 18:04 |
| paulproteus | ! | 18:04 |
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