Thursday, 2008-04-24

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montaggpaulproteus: Do you know if CC is working toward declaring any other free licenses compatible? I know there's some language in the new statement regarding compatibility, but few specifics.00:24
montaggI ask because Jamendo keeps screwing me on giving me work I can use for "commercial purposes" and "make derivatives" from it, and it hands me a LAL work without telling me, and I want to kick it.00:25
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Matson02:11
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* Matson /leave11:00
Matson oops11:00
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Mihai``hello11:13
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Mihai``nathany there ?11:44
nathanyHi Mihai``... in a meeting right now; what's up11:44
Mihai``oh , i wanted to say thank you for accepting me in gsoc :)11:45
Mihai``and i guess i wanted to get started ...11:46
Mihai``but i guess you are busy now, so i can wait11:46
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nathanyMihai``: you're welcome... we'll be sending some intro emails in the next day or two12:01
nathanywith some startup stuff12:01
Mihai``cool12:02
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Mihai``at the moment i downloaded the source code for ccooo12:02
Mihai``i think i have my hands full for the momment :)12:02
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nathanyMihai``: ok, great :)12:34
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nkinkadepaulproteus: You there?12:44
paulproteusnkinkade, Yes.12:45
nkinkadeI was just shocked to find 3 dirvish-cronjobs running on your machine.12:45
paulproteusOh, interesting.12:45
nkinkadeand that the last successful backup was the 21st.12:45
paulproteusProbably one of my jobs is taking a long long time?12:45
nkinkadeI presume that the last 3 days worth are still running.12:45
* paulproteus nods12:46
paulproteusThree, though?12:46
nkinkadePerhaps, but this is a major problem.12:46
paulproteusAre they stepping on each others' toes? I wonder.12:46
paulproteusYes, I can see why you'd say that (and I'd even agree!).12:46
nkinkadeThey might be, but I thought that it was set to not run concurrently.12:46
nkinkadeWhen did you add niceness to the cronjob?12:46
paulproteusI don't remember doing that off-hand.12:46
paulproteusI'm sure that doesn't slow it down though.12:47
paulproteusI/O bandwidth isn't affected by niceness, and dirvish cron jobs don't use much CPU.12:47
nkinkadenathany: I think we need to look into moving backups off that machine sooner than later.12:47
paulproteusnkinkade, Or just separating my cron jobs from yours!12:47
paulproteusThat'd be just as good, I think...12:47
nkinkadeIt's just to critical a thing to mingle with someone else's work.12:47
paulproteus(So that mine can take days and yours are unaffected.)12:47
nathanywhat's taking days to run?12:48
paulproteusMy personal backup jobs.12:48
paulproteus"Easy answer: Tell Asheesh to not run personal backup jobs in the same system as the CC backup jobs."12:48
nkinkadeInterestingly, I just created a task for myself to write some scripts that would automatically verify backups.12:48
paulproteusThat's how I see it, and then I have to figure out what to do, but I'm a smart cookie and can figure it out.12:48
paulproteus(Given that dirvish runs all backup jobs in serial.)12:49
nkinkadeEven if you weren't to run you backup jobs, I still think we need to move those backups.12:49
paulproteus(This wouldn't be an issue if dirvish ran the backup jobs in parallel.)12:49
nathanyi'm still sort of incredulous that your stuff to back up on that machine can be *that* big12:49
nkinkadeDon't put anything past paulproteus.12:49
nkinkade:)12:49
nathanynkinkade: refresh my memory... backups... live on that machine? are run there and uploaded to S3? can't remember what we decided to do12:49
nkinkadeEspecially on that machine.  I've witnessed things I never thought I'd see on a computer.12:49
nathanylol12:50
nkinkadepaulproteus's machine12:50
paulproteusHey...12:50
paulproteusOther than the Ubuntu->Debian "upgrade," I don't know what's super fruity there.12:50
nkinkadeAnd he's manages the machine well, I'm sure, but he's also been know to abuse it badly in the name of science.12:50
nathanylol12:50
nathanyAh Science; she's a harsh mistress12:50
paulproteusIn my defense, I also abuse a8 in the name of science.12:51
nathanytrue enough12:51
nkinkadeTrue 'dat.12:51
nathanyso do you have a proposal on where to move things to, nkinkade?12:51
Bovinityweird science.12:51
nathanyshe blinded me with science12:51
paulproteusShe blinded me with backups.12:51
nkinkadeI think we should have a dedicated machine.12:51
paulproteusThat seems reasonable enough to me (and lets me buy an internal drive for my personal backups...) but I would just suggest against spending too much money on it.12:52
nkinkadeAnd it could also substitute as a general backup machine, even for desktops and such.12:52
nkinkadeI think this has come up before.12:52
nathanyit has12:52
nathanyiirc there was budgetary push-back before12:52
nkinkadeThat could be ... but in this case I think we need to evaluate the value of backups.12:53
nathanytrue12:53
paulproteusDoes CC really have no spare computers lying around?12:53
nathanyok, can we remove our backup's dependency on paulproteus's jobs running now and i'll look at the budget12:53
nkinkadeI guess it's hard to put a monetary value on it.12:53
nathanywe can chat about it this afternoon12:54
nkinkadeI'm not 100% sure what Dirvish is doing, but there are 3 instance running concurrently.12:54
nkinkadeAnd they all have something to do with rose.makesad.us12:54
paulproteusnkinkade, My guess is that it's allowing itself to run three times.12:54
nathanywhat is rose.makesad.us?12:54
paulproteusMy personal server.12:54
nkinkadeSo like paulproteus said, I suspect it's hungup on backing up loads of other stuff.12:55
nathanyum, not to be a total dick, but why are you running backups from that to your box here?12:55
paulproteusnathany, I have an external drive here, and this machine is always on?12:55
nathanyah, ok12:55
nkinkadeIt's a reasonable question, I think.12:55
paulproteusMy guess (not double-checked) is that since the first day didn't finish and there's no lock preventing it from re-running the same job, it's going into a tragic loop.12:55
paulproteusiirc I wrote a lousy Python script for avoiding this problem, and nkinkade wrote a more reasonable Perl thing for it.12:55
nathanysorry, i jumped to the conclusion you were using the drive space for CC backups... shouldn't have done that12:55
nkinkadeI thought we had something in the config somewhere that checked for another running instance and failed if there was?12:56
paulproteusnathany, /me shrugs, no worries, that's what questions are for.12:56
nkinkadeThen again, I think I suggested 3 lines of Perl code to write a PID to check against.12:56
paulproteusYes, which makes perfectly good sense.12:57
nathanyanyway, can we kill the hung up jobs so they don't block CC backups (which should be priority regardless of disk space) and fix the concurrency check?12:57
paulproteusnkinkade, Do you want to check if that's there, or do you want me to?12:57
paulproteusnathany, Let's disagnose the current situation first?12:57
nkinkadeCheck what again?12:57
paulproteusCheck if it's doing the "allow self to run while self is running" thing.12:57
paulproteusOH!12:57
paulproteusActually I think in the end I didn't tell anyone, but I abandoned my Python script method in preference to hacking the dirvish-cronjob shell script.12:57
paulproteus*And* I only did that modification on rose.makesad.us (which itself pulls backups from places), not on my desktop.12:58
nathanypaulproteus: i'm fine with diagnosing the situation but want to be certain that backups are going to run as expected when i leave the office this afternoon12:58
paulproteusnathany, You got it, I can commit to that.12:58
nathanygreat12:58
nathanyok, i'm working pretty focused now12:58
paulproteusMy shell script modification version has the cron job fail in the case that it's already running, and send out an email to root.12:58
paulproteusnkinkade, I never tried your Perl version though.12:59
nkinkadeSomething like12:59
nkinkadeif ( -s "$pid_file" && system('ps `cat $pid_file`') == 0 ) {12:59
nkinkade        print "It seems that another instance of $0 is still/already running.  Exiting ...\n";12:59
nkinkade        exit;12:59
nkinkade}12:59
nkinkadeOh, that's ugly.  Sorry.12:59
nkinkadeAnd then a line to write the pid file.12:59
nkinkadeI'll get that going in /etc/dirvish/dirvish-cronjob right now13:00
nkinkadeAnd shall I just kill the running backups?13:00
paulproteusSure, kill 'em dead.13:00
nkinkadeI'd also like to remove the nice from the command.13:00
paulproteusSure, since it's meaningless.13:00
nkinkadeBut I know that might affect your usage of the machine, at 10PM.13:00
nkinkadeOr thereabouts.13:01
paulproteusWhich does happen, especially when I'm in Japan. (-:13:01
nkinkadeSo, to summarize: I'll kill off the running jobs, fix the script and then restart it.13:01
paulproteusOkay, except:13:01
paulproteusLet me find my shell version and see if you like that more.13:01
paulproteusI'll be back with it in 45s or so.13:02
nkinkadeYour python thing?13:02
paulproteusNo, the one that's not Python.13:02
nkinkadeWhatever you were doing, I recall it seemed not all that elegant, to me, at least.13:02
paulproteusSo dirvish-cronjob is shell, not Perl.13:02
paulproteusYes.13:02
paulproteusThat version sucked.13:02
paulproteusAs I wrote:13:02
paulproteus<paulproteus> Actually I think in the end I didn't tell anyone, but I abandoned my Python script method in preference to hacking the dirvish-cronjob shell script.13:02
nkinkadeChecking for the existence of rsync-errors, or something like that.13:02
paulproteusGimme a sec.13:03
paulproteusI think you may like this more.13:03
paulproteusPlease on my desktop, do:13:03
paulproteusdiff /etc/dirvish/dirvish-cronjob /tmp/dirvish-cronjob13:03
paulproteusOh, wait a sec.13:03
paulproteusLet me clean up the diff.13:04
paulproteusNow try:13:06
paulproteusdiff --minimal /etc/dirvish/dirvish-cronjob /tmp/dirvish-cronjob  | less13:06
paulproteusThis is smarter than yours - it stores the PID file in a /var/lock file.13:07
paulproteusFor example, if I ran a different program called "dirvish", then yours would abort, but mine would succeed.13:07
paulproteusWhich is as it should be.13:07
paulproteusAnd it enhances the shell script of dirvish-cronjob, rather than modifying the Perl of dirvish itself.13:08
paulproteusI can probably get the Debian maintainer to accept my patch, conveniently.13:08
nkinkadeThat all looks good to me.13:08
paulproteusWant me to apply it?13:08
nkinkadeWait, why would mine fail?13:09
paulproteusIt checks for $0.13:09
nkinkadeBut mine was in Perl anyway.13:09
nkinkadeWhich one are you talking about?  I'm referring to a check like this one: http://code.creativecommons.org/viewsvn/scripts/fetch_backups.pl?revision=8027&view=markup13:09
paulproteusThe check for $0 is a name-based check, so if I'm running a different program that's designed not to clash with yours, but it has the same name for some reason, then yours will be surprised.13:10
paulproteusWell, that refers to rdiff-backup and therefore isn't really relevant, right?13:10
paulproteusOh, never mind - you do check with a PID file.13:10
paulproteus<nkinkade>         print "It seems that another instance of $0 is still/already running.  Exiting ...\n";13:10
paulproteusYou only use $0 for echoing, not for checking.  My bad.13:10
paulproteusAnyway, how about I apply my patch?13:11
nkinkadeYeah, go ahead.13:11
paulproteusI've also commented-out my jobs from the /etc/dirvish/master.conf.13:11
paulproteusApplied.13:11
paulproteusI'll use my own separate dirvish conf and my own separate cron job.13:12
nkinkadeOkay, so I'm going to restart the job manually now.13:12
paulproteusAnd kill the old jobs dead too, while you're at it.13:12
paulproteusSorry about causing a ruckus. (-:13:12
nkinkadeI'm just glad I caught it 3 days after the fact.  I try to get into your machine once every week or so to check on the backups.13:17
nkinkadeAnd it was just pure coincidence that I created a task for myself to automate the verification of backups.  You can see it at teamspace.13:18
paulproteusWell, I'm sorry I'm creating things for you to "catch".13:18
nkinkadeAll's well that ends well, I always say.13:21
paulproteus(-:13:26
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lifeeth!quote rohitj13:28
bugmebotlifeeth: <rohitj> its irritating13:28
bheekling!part #cc13:28
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bheeklingsorry about that people...13:29
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nathanypaulproteus: SYN14:25
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mecredishrm just found a SMW bug15:04
mecredisYou can't put inline queries as the value of a template variable15:04
mecredis{{Template |Variable={{#ask: ... }} }} breaks15:04
nathanyreally? that's a tiny bit surprising... yuck15:06
mecredisyeah15:07
mecredisthe Template needs to be "greedy" and the ask needs to be lazy15:07
mecredisbut it seems to be the opposite.15:07
mecredis:(15:07
nathanyah15:08
paulproteusnathany, ACK..15:18
nathanypaulproteus: nm, sent via email15:19
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paulproteusGot it.15:20
nathanypaulproteus: interested in http://wiki.pylonshq.com/display/pylonscommunity/Sprints ?15:20
paulproteusI saw that, yeah.  How's "Maybe?" for an answer?15:21
paulproteusIt's on a weekend, which is a little sad. (-;15:22
nathanyyeah, i know15:22
nathanyi was going to sign up and then i realized it was a weekend... boo hiss15:22
paulproteusI mean, it makes sense for people without bosses like you and Mike.15:22
nathanypaulproteus: yes, but if we organize the world for those people, we'll always have that sort of world15:34
nathany(the sort with lame bosses ;) )15:34
paulproteusnathany, Man, I don't like your templating system.  Is this Mako templates?15:42
nathany"your" templating system?15:42
nathanyi believe it's Mako, yes15:42
paulproteusI mean, I'm working on Herder, and the code up to here is yours.15:42
nathanyyou mean the way I nested them?15:42
nathanyright15:42
paulproteusNo, not the way you nested them.15:42
paulproteusThe fact that it's even *possible* for this template to generate <title>s with <a href=""> in them.15:43
paulproteusRather than escaping the inner content by default.15:43
paulproteusIt's just Wrong.15:43
paulproteusBe aware of what you're generating15:43
paulproteus!15:43
paulproteusIt's (X)HTML, not strings!15:43
nathanyah, got it15:43
paulproteusIt makes me particularly scared when you <div id="%{template command}">.15:43
paulproteusWho KNOWS what will happen there?15:43
* paulproteus sighs.15:43
nathanytrue enough15:44
nathanyi'm not 100% convinced that Mako is dangerous... seems pretty well distributed15:45
nathanybut i think you can swap out different templating engines using Buffet15:45
nathanyi'm not married to Mako, just used them because they were the default15:45
paulproteusYeah, I'm aware.  I seem to recall a deep love for Kid from my experience with them.15:45
paulproteusRadical correctness or else.15:45
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mecrediswow17:35
mecredisI accidentally pasted some localization code into my terminal17:36
mecredisand now I've got half a dozen files that I can't delete17:36
mecredisbecause their names are in unicode17:36
nkinkadeMove the normally named files to another directory, and then rm ./* ???17:39
mecredisyah17:41
mecredisgood idea17:41
mecredisgah17:41
paulproteusmecredis, What I do is I use "?" to match the characters I can't type.17:47
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ianloicI don't know if anyone else noticed this but I was just listening to the most recent This American Life this morning and at the end they said something along the lines of "some of the music in today's show is from Nine Inch Nails' album Ghosts". I guess that's the CC attribution :)17:59
paulproteusWow, nice. (-:18:00
tvolyeah i heard that too, ianloic--awesome18:03
ianloictvol, it was great how low key it was. It wasn't "HERE'S THE CC ATTRIBUTION!!!", it was just a simple, effective statement of attribution.18:04
tvolclassy18:04
paulproteusnathany, Wow, I should have gone to the Selenium night some time back at Google.18:05
paulproteusnathany, http://raibledesigns.com/rd/entry/last_night_s_selenium_users18:05
rohitjBluehost.com asked me remove some songs from my site. These songs were downloaded from jamendo.com, and I wasn't distributing them. When I argued saying I am legally allowed to possess them they said "There is no way to prove that you have the rights to possess and/or distribute this music." .... and so you must remove these songs. :D18:18
rohitjI wonder how to argue with them18:19
nkinkaderohitj: Are they going to yank your hosting if you don't take them down?18:21
rohitjnkinkade: they have already done that. They gave me 48 hour, but they did that before it giving some lame arguement.18:21
Bovinityrohitj: did you direct them to the corresponding jamendo page?18:22
rohitjand the beauty is that they have not been notified by any law enforcing authority18:22
rohitjBovinity: I did.18:22
nkinkadeSounds to me like a hosting company you wouldn't want to be with anyway.18:24
paulproteusrohitj, Did you link them to the Jamendo download link for the songs?18:24
paulproteusnathany, SYN?18:24
Bovinityhe be out18:24
rohitjnkinkade: true18:24
rohitjpaulproteus: I guess I will give them link to each song.18:25
nkinkadeIf they can't even be reasonable and check their facts, and then to pull your hosting, and all over something that wasn't even illegal.18:25
nkinkadeJeeez.18:25
rohitjin their words "There is no way for us to know where you got the files from.  I understand that the URL you gave promotes what you described, but we will not go through every song on your account & make sure it is on this free website."18:26
nkinkadeSo are they basically saying that no customer can host any songs on any site that they host?18:27
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rohitjI have no idea what they want18:27
rohitjonce I said that I made those songs, now can I possess them. And then they were like, prove it to us that you made the songs.18:28
nkinkadeDid someone complain about your songs?18:28
rohitjnkinkade: I asked them this question repeatedly, they didn't respond answer that question.18:28
Bovinitysounds like shitty customer service to me18:28
paulproteusrohitj, You should probably flame them in public somewhere.18:29
nkinkadeWhat I'd be curious to know is how they knew you even had songs on your site.  Are they scanning their users files for certain media types?18:29
rohitjpaulproteus: some of my friends who are on some popular planets are gonna do that18:29
paulproteusDo their terms of service ban this?18:29
rohitjnkinkade: yes, there is nothing called privacy there18:30
paulproteus"this" being "putting files on your account you're allowed to distribute, but then not distributing them"?18:30
rohitjnkinkade: I think they are scanning user files. Because tehre is no other way to access those files.18:30
paulproteusrohitj, You should demand they remove all WordPress installs.18:30
paulproteusOr otherwise demand that they remove people's accounts for hosting that warez written in PHP.18:30
paulproteusNo one will be able to prove that they have permission to host a copy of the WordPress software.18:30
Bovinitylol, their knowledge base includes documentation on "how do i stream .mp3 files?"18:31
Bovinityhttp://helpdesk.bluehost.com/kb/index.php?x=&mod_id=2&id=11318:31
rohitjpaulproteus: I argued that as well saying "You need to understand that I have *rights* to possess those songs. Even open source softwares like wordpress that you give to your users are copyrighted. But you still give it away because those softwares are licensed in a ways that you can distribute them. In the similar way these songs are licensed in a way that I can possess them. I am even giving you a valid place (http://jamendo.com) where you can get to know a18:31
rohitjbout it. Now should I say that you are giving softwares illegally? No, right?"18:31
paulproteusYour reaction seems extraordinarily reasonable.18:32
rohitjpaulproteus: ToS doesn't talk about distribution etc. So, I am allowed to do that. And anyways their claim is that these songs are infringing copyright laws18:32
nkinkadeLike paulproteus said, you should flame them somewhere in public .. and then I'd just drop it.  There's lot of companies out there like that, I'm sure.  You could press the issue, but at the end of the day you will just cause stress for yourself.18:33
paulproteusIf I were you, I'd be prepared for them to remove my account by making a backup of my data, but I'd press the issue.18:33
paulproteusDon't delete them; see who blinks.18:33
paulproteusJust say, "No, you're wrong, I have permission.  I'm not deleting them."18:34
nkinkadeI figured paulproteus would take that stance. :)18:34
rohitjnkinkade: stress is not a problem. If they try to harass me in any way, I am gonna fight18:34
rohitjpaulproteus: yepp18:34
paulproteusSeeing who blinks is fun.18:34
nkinkadepaulproteus: But he said earilier that they already yanked his hosting, unless I misunderstood.18:34
paulproteusIn all sorts of circumstances.18:34
rohitjyepp, they pulled my site down, I have 30 days before they delete my account altogether.18:34
paulproteusOh, I missed that part?18:35
paulproteusOh.18:35
paulproteusThose jerks.18:35
paulproteusAre they breaking the contact you two entered into?18:35
paulproteusObviously I'm not a lawyer.18:35
nkinkaderohitj: I guess I was speaking more from a Eastern philosophy standpoint re: the let it go thing.  You have to pick your battles and this one doesn't seem like it'll be fruitful for anyone involved.18:36
rohitjpaulproteus: at the end they reserve all rights, isn't it18:36
rohitjnkinkade: hmm18:36
nkinkadeBetter to spend the time fighting factory farming and animal abuse, or the degradation of the natural world.18:36
nkinkadeI'm just blathering here, more or less, but I say these things sincerely.18:37
paulproteusIt's possible, I haven't read your contract.18:38
paulproteusThat's pretty evil of them.  I'm glad you didn't blink.18:38
paulproteusI'm going to vanish for now.18:38
rohitjhmm18:38
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rohitjdo you people think EFF would be helpful?18:45
rohitjpaulproteus: ^^18:45
rohitjnkinkade: this battle will at least keep my self-respect high ;)18:46
bheeklingrohitj, you called us after the conversation was over :P18:50
rohitjbheekling: :)18:52
rohitjbheekling: http://dpaste.com/46799/18:58
bheeklinghmmmm18:59
nkinkadeBovinity: Do you care to merge to production your changes to ccLearn?19:02
nkinkadeSeems like we resolved the doubt at lunch, and Ahrash is fine with it as long as the posts don't show up on the main blog.19:03
nkinkadeAnd, by the way, I'm seriously considering a setup like that of paulproteus so that I can stand in front of my computer.19:03
Bovinitynkinkade: i was just about about to let you know, and do it19:05
Bovinityhe doesn't want those feature items to appear on cc blog?19:05
nkinkadeBovinity: Right.19:09
nathanypaulproteus: ACK19:10
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nkinkadenathany: SMW for teamspace and wiki is now at 1.1.1.19:56
nathanynkinkade: awesome! thanks19:57
nkinkadeStrange this is that the version on teamspace still reads 1.0.119:57
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