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| Matson | nathan on? | 16:59 |
|---|---|---|
| Bovinity | no, he's not here today | 16:59 |
| Matson | ok | 17:00 |
| Matson | I'm following up a discussion from earlier this week about a BEP (a document) that he and Asheesh Laroia were working on | 17:00 |
| paulproteus | Howdy Matson. | 17:00 |
| Matson | hi - Jonathan here from LegalTorrents | 17:00 |
| paulproteus | Howdy Matson! | 17:00 |
| paulproteus | Nathan's not around today, but good to talk to you. | 17:01 |
| Matson | howdy | 17:01 |
| paulproteus | By any chance, were you at the Public Knowledge party after the MGM v. Grokster case? | 17:01 |
| paulproteus | Er, after the oral arguments, that is (three years ago). | 17:01 |
| Matson | sorry, no | 17:01 |
| paulproteus | Oh, well, I must be thinking of someone else. (-: | 17:01 |
| paulproteus | Anyway, one stumbling block we ran into is that someone pointed out that torrents in general don't contain metadata about their contents. | 17:02 |
| paulproteus | So we wondered, Why start now? | 17:02 |
| paulproteus | So we got a little flustered and confused. | 17:02 |
| paulproteus | One thing we wanted to know is, Let's say there's a .torrent on legaltorrents.com. | 17:02 |
| paulproteus | Do such .torrent files get copied to other torrent hosting/torrent search sites? | 17:02 |
| Matson | well, they don't contain much human readable metadata, but in one sense, torrents are designed to maintain metadata - the hashes | 17:03 |
| paulproteus | We're trying to strengthen the use cases, especially if client programs aren't very interested in displaying the torrent license (which is the impression we got from at least the Transmission folks). | 17:03 |
| Matson | sometimes, yes, they are copied around | 17:03 |
| paulproteus | This is a little second-hand for me, since I wasn't part of the earlier discussions; I'm coming into this a little fresh. | 17:03 |
| Matson | interesting... Transmission folks said they were not interested in displaying the license info? | 17:04 |
| paulproteus | That's the impression I got from Nathan. | 17:04 |
| Matson | I'm surprised to hear that | 17:04 |
| paulproteus | Perhaps we should table this until he's back, though. | 17:04 |
| paulproteus | Which should be Monday, and maybe he'll reply to emails. | 17:04 |
| Matson | ok | 17:04 |
| paulproteus | If you're okay just waiting until Monday, that'd probably be best. (-: | 17:04 |
| Matson | sounds good | 17:05 |
| Matson | I'm clearing out te todo list before the weekend. it is now on next week's list | 17:05 |
| Matson | thanks | 17:05 |
| paulproteus | Sounds good. (-: | 17:05 |
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| hdworak | hi | 17:35 |
| hdworak | paulproteus: ping ;) | 17:35 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, pong (-: | 17:35 |
| paulproteus | No nathany here today, I'm afraid. | 17:36 |
| hdworak | I'm about to read about this RDFa and cc licensing of it | 17:36 |
| hdworak | I've picked up a few URLs | 17:36 |
| paulproteus | Okay. | 17:36 |
| paulproteus | Do you know about RDF in general, first of all? | 17:36 |
| hdworak | could u tell me if I'm missing something important, pls? | 17:36 |
| paulproteus | If not, I can point you to a good RDF primer. | 17:36 |
| hdworak | yeah, I did a write on that while ago | 17:36 |
| paulproteus | Great. | 17:36 |
| hdworak | all the 5 specs that consist of it | 17:36 |
| paulproteus | Feel free to give me the links you're going to read and I can sanity-check them. | 17:37 |
| hdworak | or was it OWL | 17:37 |
| paulproteus | (-: | 17:37 |
| hdworak | I know that the semantics part is not for computer engineers | 17:37 |
| hdworak | (where they come up with some logical analysis of data meaning etc.) | 17:37 |
| * paulproteus nods | 17:37 | |
| hdworak | :) | 17:37 |
| hdworak | http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/ | 17:37 |
| hdworak | http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-rdfa-syntax-20080125/ | 17:37 |
| hdworak | http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RDFa&printable=yes | 17:38 |
| hdworak | http://torrez.us/rdfa/ | 17:38 |
| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/RDFa | 17:38 |
| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Marking_works | 17:38 |
| paulproteus | Whoa. | 17:38 |
| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CcREL | 17:38 |
| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Category:Filetype | 17:38 |
| hdworak | that's it | 17:38 |
| paulproteus | Oh, man. | 17:38 |
| paulproteus | (-: | 17:38 |
| hdworak | sorry for flooding | 17:38 |
| paulproteus | That's a lot of reading you're going to do! | 17:38 |
| paulproteus | Are you sure you're really going to read them all? | 17:38 |
| hdworak | well, aside of the first two links, there's not much reading after all | 17:39 |
| hdworak | most of them are just a showcase | 17:39 |
| hdworak | well, anyway | 17:39 |
| paulproteus | Okay. | 17:40 |
| paulproteus | Note that the first one by Ben Adida has him professing to be part of CC. (-: | 17:40 |
| hdworak | is RDFa+cc some kind of a technology that IS HERE right NOW or some kind of Web 3.0 talk, yeah, one day, us visionaries | 17:40 |
| paulproteus | HERE right NOW | 17:40 |
| paulproteus | For example: | 17:41 |
| hdworak | :) | 17:41 |
| paulproteus | 1. rel=license works and is deployed | 17:41 |
| hdworak | how about | 17:41 |
| hdworak | <a rel="DC.rights.license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/pl/" hreflang="pl" accesskey="l"> | 17:41 |
| hdworak | that I have on my Web site for quite some time now | 17:42 |
| hdworak | what's the cc's position on dc's profile? | 17:42 |
| paulproteus | Er, I'm not sure if we have a "position," but we use many DC elements naturally. | 17:42 |
| hdworak | ok :) | 17:43 |
| hdworak | I guess it would be sane to support that | 17:43 |
| paulproteus | I don't personally remember if dc.rights.license is the same as the normal W3C license which is the same as the CC namespace's "license" | 17:43 |
| paulproteus | That is to say, I know off-hand the latter two are the same; I imagine your dc.rights.license is probably the same but would have to look it up. | 17:43 |
| hdworak | ok, but it's a mean of expressing a license, cc too | 17:44 |
| hdworak | and you've never recommended anything like that | 17:44 |
| paulproteus | I'm a little confused. | 17:44 |
| hdworak | sorry for such questions, but I'm about to implement also the historical deprecated stuff and such things | 17:44 |
| hdworak | and I don't quite know what were all the options | 17:44 |
| paulproteus | Well, I think we've abandoned RDF in a comment. | 17:44 |
| hdworak | is there a good source for this? | 17:44 |
| paulproteus | The Marking page is the current recommendation. | 17:45 |
| paulproteus | Let me read it. (-: | 17:45 |
| hdworak | ok, so the whole validator will be just about RDF stuff? | 17:45 |
| paulproteus | RDFa stuff, yeah. | 17:45 |
| hdworak | we ignore simple embedding of like links to cc with a nice button or something | 17:45 |
| hdworak | and we say "semantically, it's zero" | 17:45 |
| paulproteus | Right. It would be good to pick up on those and suggest that they add semantics, though! | 17:46 |
| hdworak | yeah | 17:46 |
| paulproteus | And relatedly, it would be good to pick up on "RDF in a comment" and suggest the RDFa way. | 17:46 |
| paulproteus | But those shouldn't Validate. | 17:46 |
| hdworak | or even provide an automatic translation, huh? | 17:46 |
| hdworak | if that's feasible to write | 17:46 |
| paulproteus | Sure, that'd be nice (again, optionally!). | 17:46 |
| hdworak | ok | 17:48 |
| hdworak | For example: | 17:48 |
| hdworak | 1. rel=license works and is deployed | 17:48 |
| hdworak | what else makes it "now" instead "tomorrow"? | 17:48 |
| hdworak | when are ppl actually using this stuff? | 17:48 |
| hdworak | 'cause I guess the 1st point is just they go to cc's Web site, pick a license and you suggest that code along the way or do they have to show more initiative to get this kind of tagging? | 17:49 |
| paulproteus | We suggest the rel=license code. | 17:49 |
| paulproteus | And wpLicense emits that code. | 17:50 |
| paulproteus | Hopefully other sites (e.g. Flickr? I don't know for sure) do the same. | 17:50 |
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| paulproteus | But that's the sort of answer that makes it clearly deployed now. | 17:50 |
| hdworak | do we care about validating the whole RDF stuff or just the license-related stuff? | 17:50 |
| hdworak | (w3c has the RDF validator already, right?) :) | 17:51 |
| paulproteus | Just the license-related stuff. | 17:51 |
| paulproteus | And I don't know if there's an RDFa validator, though there could be. | 17:51 |
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| hdworak | http://www.w3.org/RDF/Validator/ | 17:51 |
| hdworak | comes even with visualisation | 17:51 |
| hdworak | :) | 17:51 |
| paulproteus | I said RDFa. (-: | 17:51 |
| hdworak | sorry, I was mislead by me saying RDF the previous line | 17:52 |
| hdworak | ^H^H^H | 17:52 |
| paulproteus | No worries. | 17:52 |
| hdworak | I've just found this tool | 17:53 |
| hdworak | http://torrez.us/rdfa/ | 17:53 |
| hdworak | seems a little buggy though: http://torrez.us/services/rdfa/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fben.adida.net%2Fcard | 17:53 |
| hdworak | good to know it's in Python | 17:54 |
| paulproteus | FWIW it's broken, it seems. (-: | 17:54 |
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| paulproteus | At least, it gave me some unfriendly exception when I went to ben.adida.net/card. | 17:54 |
| hdworak | nah, but at least the "Extract from HTML" works | 17:54 |
| hdworak | the guy puts some code onload and when you press this button actually something shows up (or rather down) :) | 17:55 |
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| hdworak | he just has some serious problems with the URL extraction | 17:55 |
| * paulproteus nods | 17:56 | |
| paulproteus | Let me reread the proposal right now. | 17:56 |
| paulproteus | The proposal suggestion, I mean! (-: | 17:56 |
| hdworak | yeah, I was just about to make it even | 17:56 |
| paulproteus | Oh, the suggestion does say to "support all recommended methods, historical and current, of embedding CC license information in a web page (see the file format page for more information)" | 17:57 |
| hdworak | "alert users that embedding using historical methods has been deprecated " | 17:57 |
| paulproteus | Right, exactly. | 17:57 |
| paulproteus | So these are some major differences between this and "just" an RDFa validator. | 17:58 |
| paulproteus | I think the only old way that's not rel="license" or RDFa for WWW pages is "RDF in a comment". | 17:58 |
| hdworak | fine | 17:58 |
| hdworak | + we can scan for DC.rights.license | 17:58 |
| hdworak | + and cc buttons linked to cc | 17:59 |
| hdworak | but that's just a proposal | 17:59 |
| paulproteus | If DC.rights.license rdf:sameAs cc:license, then DC.rights.license makes sense. | 17:59 |
| paulproteus | Is that supposed to be RDFa on your site? | 17:59 |
| hdworak | can't think of anything else automatic | 17:59 |
| hdworak | hugo.dworak.info ? | 17:59 |
| paulproteus | Why do you use "." not ":" to separate the namespace from the element? | 18:00 |
| * paulproteus is at hugo.dworak.info now | 18:00 | |
| hdworak | ok, let me have a look | 18:01 |
| paulproteus | As I understand things, RDFa wants you to use colon, not period. | 18:01 |
| paulproteus | Are you complying with some other spec? | 18:01 |
| paulproteus | I'm reading http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/#id85078 . | 18:01 |
| hdworak | first of all, when I wrote that code I was not aware of any RDFa | 18:01 |
| hdworak | but I was aware of DC and that's what the Web page makes a heavy use of | 18:01 |
| paulproteus | Sure - but what standard are you using for embedding DC into HTML, I mean? | 18:02 |
| hdworak | http://dublincore.org/documents/dcq-html/ | 18:02 |
| hdworak | they never used a dot | 18:02 |
| hdworak | and then I thought I'm gonna be super elite and add some license to the page | 18:03 |
| paulproteus | Interesting, I didn't know about this - thanks. | 18:03 |
| paulproteus | I imagine Nathan probably did, however. (-; | 18:03 |
| hdworak | and I thought prof. Lessig is a lawyer, so he knows how to license stuff + he has a Web page | 18:03 |
| hdworak | so I've just checked what's the license of his Web page | 18:03 |
| hdworak | cc-3.0 something | 18:03 |
| hdworak | I go to cc.org and get the XHTML code for the license | 18:03 |
| hdworak | and what do I see... | 18:04 |
| hdworak | rel="license" | 18:04 |
| paulproteus | (-: | 18:04 |
| hdworak | and I think... hm... what's that? | 18:04 |
| paulproteus | It would be nice (but very optional) to support this DCQ HTML in the metadata validator. | 18:04 |
| hdworak | I've checked link rel in the HTML 4.01 | 18:04 |
| hdworak | alternate, etc. were there, but license, no... | 18:04 |
| hdworak | so how could I come up with a rel="license" all of a sudden | 18:04 |
| hdworak | then I thought - but DC has the license tag itself | 18:05 |
| hdworak | so I've ended up with DC.rights.license | 18:05 |
| hdworak | end of story :) | 18:05 |
| paulproteus | Well, RDFa is the future, in our opinion. (-: | 18:05 |
| paulproteus | And, it seems, in W3C's opinion as well. | 18:05 |
| hdworak | yeah, especially if you know about it | 18:05 |
| paulproteus | (-: ! | 18:05 |
| hdworak | I'm all for further standards | 18:06 |
| hdworak | it's just my knowledge is very limited | 18:06 |
| paulproteus | Well, you know about the DC standards, which is something! | 18:06 |
| paulproteus | Anyway, enough self-pity, more discussion of the SoC project. | 18:07 |
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| hdworak | sure; so that's were we've stood - is there any important URL I've missed? | 18:08 |
| hdworak | do you have a doc on that deprecated RDF comment on your wiki? | 18:09 |
| hdworak | I'm looking (http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Category:Metadata) but can't see it | 18:09 |
| paulproteus | I think you've got it all. | 18:10 |
| paulproteus | Let me find the RDF in a comment stuff. | 18:10 |
| paulproteus | http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/01/15/creative.html is someone else's quite-valid flame complaining about what we did. (-: | 18:11 |
| hdworak | right | 18:12 |
| hdworak | that method reminds me of IE's conditional comments | 18:12 |
| paulproteus | Heh. | 18:12 |
| paulproteus | It's even worse, in my opinion. | 18:12 |
| paulproteus | Here's our historical response to the flame: http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/3588 | 18:13 |
| hdworak | a paradox, huh? you put semantic data in an element, which, by the very definition, cannot have any semantic meaning whatsoever | 18:13 |
| hdworak | :) | 18:13 |
| paulproteus | Hey, we stopped doing that. (-: | 18:13 |
| paulproteus | We all agree it's quite terrible. | 18:13 |
| paulproteus | But yes, it's quite ironic! | 18:14 |
| paulproteus | http://api.creativecommons.org/docs/readme_10.html has our spec I suppose - "Note the <html> element contains the entire RDF-in-comment which the standard CC license engine returns." | 18:14 |
| paulproteus | So now you know pretty much everything that we ever wrote about RDF-in-comment that I can find, at least. | 18:14 |
| hdworak | don't get me wrong, I'm all grateful for what you're doing and in position really to criticise you | 18:14 |
| hdworak | and W3C had their ups and downs with presentational elements in HTML, too | 18:15 |
| paulproteus | “For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant, and wrong.”--H.L. Mencken. | 18:15 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, Don't feel bad, I'm flaming us about it too. | 18:15 |
| hdworak | but there's a difference in trying to find a solution and not doing anything | 18:15 |
| paulproteus | Yes, yes, it's all good, we can pat ourselves on the back, but you should write your proposal and I should code some other stuff anyway. (-: | 18:16 |
| paulproteus | So let's get back on topic. | 18:16 |
| Bovinity | group hug! | 18:16 |
| paulproteus | I do appreciate the depth with which you are approaching the validator. | 18:16 |
| * paulproteus squeezes Bovinity | 18:16 | |
| hdworak | hi Bovinity | 18:17 |
| hdworak | the depth!? | 18:17 |
| hdworak | I'm just running around in circles | 18:17 |
| hdworak | trying to see what the problem is | 18:18 |
| paulproteus | The problem that the Validator is trying to solve, you mean? | 18:18 |
| hdworak | although don't tell that to the GSOC-proposal voters | 18:18 |
| hdworak | ;) | 18:18 |
| hdworak | no; so far I understand the purpose of all this stuff | 18:20 |
| hdworak | a sexy way to embedded cc licenses in a modern (3.0) fashion | 18:20 |
| hdworak | I'm all for it | 18:20 |
| hdworak | but since I haven't read the specs yet, I can't quite say I'm approaching this "in depth" | 18:20 |
| hdworak | :) | 18:20 |
| paulproteus | Well, okay, but clearly nor have I. (-; | 18:20 |
| hdworak | nevertheless, I'm pretty much sure I'll be able to do some serious work in this matter if given a chance | 18:20 |
| paulproteus | I agree. | 18:20 |
| paulproteus | I'm actually quite hopeful that you finish applying. | 18:27 |
| hdworak | no worries, I'm all for it | 18:31 |
| hdworak | seems a pretty valuable project | 18:31 |
| hdworak | in terms of usefulness and toughness | 18:31 |
| hdworak | as you say it - a challenge | 18:32 |
| hdworak | I've been through proposals saying "make our Web site's diagrams beautiful" like the one on Tor | 18:32 |
| paulproteus | Hah. | 18:32 |
| Bovinity | O_o | 18:33 |
| hdworak | or facilate Web site translation like Pidgin | 18:33 |
| hdworak | or improve our HTML/CSS/JavaScript like musicbrainz | 18:33 |
| hdworak | you name it | 18:33 |
| paulproteus | Well, let's just not waste our breath talking about things you don't like that others are doing, and either point out good things they do that we should do, or bad or good things we do, eh? | 18:35 |
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| hdworak | nah | 18:36 |
| hdworak | that was supposed to be a proof that I take GSOC seriously and I've been through the ideas of various organisations and that I've picked yours as very interesting | 18:36 |
| hdworak | nothing random ;) | 18:37 |
| hdworak | but you're right, let's skip that | 18:37 |
| paulproteus | Okay, well good. (-: | 18:37 |
| hdworak | less talk, more code | 18:37 |
| paulproteus | Let me just quickly say the related statement for you, then. We've seen a lot of possible GSoC students, and we really like you so far. | 18:38 |
| hdworak | what can I say, it's nice to hear that, 'cause I want to work on this | 18:38 |
| hdworak | still, you cannot expect much from students who just started their studies | 18:39 |
| hdworak | I'm just taking advantage of the fact that GSOC allows PhD students, too | 18:39 |
| hdworak | not to say that there are no brilliant 18-19 year old hackers out there | 18:40 |
| hdworak | it's just that statistically you're likely to find a more serious proposal for someone with more experience | 18:40 |
| hdworak | imho | 18:40 |
| hdworak | for=from | 18:40 |
| hdworak | I remember the days when I led the first FOSS project in my life and I did many, many things wrong | 18:41 |
| paulproteus | Heh, me too. | 18:41 |
| paulproteus | I didn't even have people to lead. | 18:41 |
| paulproteus | I would have been way better off I had some sort of open source mentor back then. | 18:42 |
| hdworak | exactly | 18:42 |
| paulproteus | But anyway. | 18:42 |
| paulproteus | Heck, even just programming mentor. | 18:42 |
| hdworak | :) | 18:42 |
| hdworak | yeah, w/o a mentor it's like walking in a dark labirynth | 18:43 |
| hdworak | if you're determined enough, you'll find a good way regardless | 18:43 |
| hdworak | it just takes longer | 18:43 |
| paulproteus | Well, I have to head out the door, but I'll be back online this evening, the weekend probably, and surely Monday. | 18:45 |
| hdworak | well, I'll have two busy days now, 'cause I have the PhD classes during the weekends every 2-3 weeks | 18:48 |
| hdworak | and tomorrow it's just one of these weekends :) | 18:48 |
| hdworak | classes from 8am till 9pm | 18:48 |
| hdworak | but I will submit the proposal until the deadline, no worries | 18:48 |
| hdworak | ok, bye bye | 18:49 |
| hdworak | and thanks for all the answers again :) | 18:52 |
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