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| maveriick | hi everybody | 07:56 |
|---|---|---|
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| hdworak | !seen nathany | 09:14 |
| hdworak | paulproteus: are you here? | 09:14 |
| hdworak | hi all :) | 09:14 |
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| qubodup | hi, can someone tell me if freedomdefined.org has an irc channel? | 10:56 |
| nathany | qubodup: i'm not aware of one | 10:57 |
| nathany | (not that i've ever explicitly looked for it) | 10:57 |
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| tvol | qubodup might be able to find more info at #fsf | 11:05 |
| qubodup | Do you know who started the DFCL (freedomdefined) project? | 11:06 |
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| tvol | qubodup no not exactly sure | 11:08 |
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| jakin | paulproteus, any luck with license chooser? | 11:16 |
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| paulproteus | jakin, Hey, not really, I still want to chat with you. | 11:51 |
| jakin | sure, i've got some time now | 11:51 |
| paulproteus | Okay, give ma a few (20-30) minutes and I'll be with you. (-: | 11:52 |
| paulproteus | jakin, Actually, okay if I find you in 1h? | 11:54 |
| jakin | paulproteus, hmm, i might be heading out. maybe this afternoon? | 11:55 |
| paulproteus | jakin, Hmm, okay, then I'll talk to you in 20m. | 11:55 |
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| paulproteus | jakin, Okay, hi? | 12:13 |
| jakin | paulproteus, yo :-) | 12:13 |
| paulproteus | So have you checked it out yet? | 12:14 |
| paulproteus | In general, though, I really don't understand the way the license chooser API is *supposed* to work. | 12:14 |
| paulproteus | So then it's no surprise I can't figure out how to un-break some tests that fail now. | 12:14 |
| jakin | :-) | 12:14 |
| jakin | let me start with the failed test... | 12:15 |
| paulproteus | Great. | 12:15 |
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| jakin | i think what is confusing is how the license chooser works depending on which attributes it is initialized | 12:17 |
| jakin | with | 12:17 |
| paulproteus | Yes, precisely. (-: | 12:18 |
| paulproteus | The best thing I can possibly imagine is if you write some fresh tests, with comments explaining the use of parameters, that don't fail. | 12:20 |
| paulproteus | If you want to just talk to me instead, I can see if I can. | 12:21 |
| jakin | i'm trying to hunt down what i need for that ncnd license | 12:21 |
| * paulproteus nods | 12:22 | |
| paulproteus | I'm a little confused - wouldn't a more normal test of the license chooser simulate checking and unchecking the license property boxes, so that you might initialize the license chooser once, and then: | 12:22 |
| paulproteus | * Simulate all unchecked, assert that only CC by is okay | 12:22 |
| paulproteus | * Check NC, and assert NC or NCND are available | 12:22 |
| paulproteus | * Check ND, and assert only NCND is available | 12:23 |
| paulproteus | (etc?) | 12:23 |
| jakin | yeah, sounds reasonable :-) | 12:23 |
| paulproteus | Well, we can get there once we fix these, natch. (-: | 12:23 |
| jakin | hmm, the problem isn't what i thought it was | 12:26 |
| paulproteus | Out of curiosity, what did you think it was? | 12:27 |
| paulproteus | Something I tried was using initializing the license chooser with the properties used for the GPL_LGPL test. | 12:28 |
| paulproteus | That didn't help me at all, though, and I became quite confused. | 12:28 |
| jakin | the fact that you have to match every attribute that you specified when initializing the chooser (unless an attriubte isn't specified in the license rdf) | 12:28 |
| * paulproteus nods | 12:29 | |
| jakin | does that make sense? | 12:32 |
| paulproteus | Yes, I understand that, I think. | 12:32 |
| paulproteus | You're saying that: | 12:32 |
| paulproteus | If I initialize a license_chooser with a bunch of attributes, my query has to specify a position for every attribute, where "position" is one of "permits", "requires" or "prohibits". | 12:33 |
| paulproteus | Right? | 12:33 |
| jakin | right | 12:33 |
| paulproteus | But that doesn't seem to address the ncnd problem. | 12:33 |
| paulproteus | Which is why I am confused. (-: | 12:34 |
| jakin | right :-/ | 12:34 |
| jakin | i wonder what could have changed since this was working fine | 12:35 |
| paulproteus | Yeah, this is one reason I'm switching to git. | 12:35 |
| paulproteus | git bisect for the win. (-; | 12:35 |
| paulproteus | Unfortunately that doesn't help for already-broken code! (-: | 12:36 |
| paulproteus | Do you think maybe you could try putting in the old RDF and seeing if that fixes it? | 12:36 |
| paulproteus | Still, though, the license properties in the by-nc-nd license seem just fine. | 12:36 |
| paulproteus | re: "was working fine": | 12:37 |
| paulproteus | I noticed your tests just printed whether or not they succeeded, rather than aborting with an assertion failure, so it could have been easy for it to have been broken longer. | 12:37 |
| paulproteus | I can try building older versions of liblicense, but they depend on older versions of libexempi than I have installed. | 12:37 |
| paulproteus | I guess I'll remove libexepi-dev and try rebuilding old version tarballs and see what they do. | 12:37 |
| jakin | well i know the chooser was working fine since I was toying with gui's for it | 12:37 |
| paulproteus | That's true enough. | 12:38 |
| jakin | okay, now i'm toying with it through the python bindings... | 12:40 |
| paulproteus | Cool - hopefully those haven't bitrotted too badly (I don't have tests for them). | 12:40 |
| jakin | yeah, i'm hoping :-P | 12:41 |
| paulproteus | Honestly, I think they should be fine. | 12:42 |
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| paulproteus | FWIW I'm compiling 0.3 now, and will do 0.4 in a minute. | 12:47 |
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| jakin | interesting, the python bindings are returning by-nc-nd/3.0 given the same info | 12:48 |
| paulproteus | Buh. | 12:49 |
| paulproteus | Then perhaps the way the C tests are calling it is wrong. | 12:49 |
| paulproteus | And it's the test at fault, not the code. | 12:49 |
| paulproteus | FWIW this test fails in 0.3 also. | 12:49 |
| paulproteus | I think? | 12:49 |
| paulproteus | Hard to say. | 12:49 |
| paulproteus | Since the old tests didn't assert anything. | 12:50 |
| paulproteus | But if you grab the 0.3 tarball, you'll see that it says "Matching licenses:" (empty) for most of the tests. | 12:50 |
| paulproteus | Same story in 0.4. | 12:50 |
| paulproteus | Most of the tests in test_chooser print no matched licenses. | 12:51 |
| paulproteus | jakin, ping - will you still be around in 20m or so? I'm still at home, and I'm thinking maybe I should actually get to the office today. | 12:54 |
| jakin | paulproteus, yeah, i should be around here at least until i've gotten lunch | 12:55 |
| paulproteus | Okay, cool. (-: | 12:56 |
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| paulproteus | Probably 30m actually, but talk to you soon as I'm back online. | 13:01 |
| jakin | alright | 13:02 |
| paulproteus | (back) | 13:35 |
| jakin | yo | 13:36 |
| paulproteus | Any idea what's up with this test? | 13:38 |
| jakin | paulproteus, so I'm stumped on the tests, but the python chooser works just fine. My unimplemented ll_get_license_flags function in license_chooser.c would have been nice for debugging this (the idea is to take a license and return which flags satisfy it) | 13:38 |
| paulproteus | Interesting. | 13:39 |
| paulproteus | It's "nice" that the Python version works. | 13:39 |
| paulproteus | (-: | 13:39 |
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| jakin | i've given up on debugging it, but do you have any questions about how it works? | 13:41 |
| jakin | i think i will write that ll_get_license_flags function, just because I think it's interesting to run my algorithm backwards | 13:43 |
| paulproteus | Cool. | 13:43 |
| paulproteus | I'll read the Python bindings and see if they do something different.... | 13:44 |
| jakin | this doesn't solve the problem, but the license that is expected is the by-nc-nd *without* a jurisdiction | 13:48 |
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| paulproteus | jakin, Would you pastebin the Python you used to test the chooser? | 13:59 |
| paulproteus | Other than that, I don't think I really have any questions. | 13:59 |
| paulproteus | I'll try it here, and see if there's some difference between what it does and what the test does. | 13:59 |
| jakin | hmm, i wrote that function and ncnd has LL_COMMERCIAL_USE as unspecified :-/ | 14:00 |
| paulproteus | Hmm! | 14:00 |
| paulproteus | That's something, at least. | 14:00 |
| jakin | and the weirdness is that it isn't in the python bindings | 14:00 |
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| paulproteus | Oh geez. | 14:01 |
| paulproteus | Is it something about the test harness? | 14:01 |
| paulproteus | Are you trying both the Python and C from a 'make install' setup, or both from the test harness environment, or one from one and one from the other? | 14:02 |
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| jakin | hmm, the python is from 'make install' | 14:03 |
| jakin | the other is probably the harness environment... not sure | 14:04 |
| * paulproteus nods | 14:04 | |
| jakin | pastebin thinks i'm spam | 14:04 |
| paulproteus | Zing. | 14:04 |
| paulproteus | How are you running the C one? | 14:04 |
| paulproteus | From ./test_chooser, or from 'make check'? | 14:04 |
| jakin | ./test_choose | 14:04 |
| jakin | r | 14:04 |
| paulproteus | That should use the make install'd version. | 14:04 |
| jakin | hmm | 14:05 |
| paulproteus | Try the test in dynamic_tests. | 14:05 |
| paulproteus | I copied all the tests to dynamic_tests and those are built against a dynamic, not static, liblicense. | 14:05 |
| paulproteus | jakin, Which pastebin - try pastebin.ca? | 14:11 |
| paulproteus | Can you email me the 'svn diff' for adding your function? | 14:12 |
| paulproteus | I can at least add some tests based on it... | 14:12 |
| jakin | http://pastebin.ca/959885 | 14:13 |
| jakin | sure, i'm touching the function up now | 14:13 |
| paulproteus | If you want commit access to the current svn repository feel free to email me an SSH key instead. | 14:13 |
| paulproteus | See code.creativecommons.org for more info. | 14:13 |
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| paulproteus | Morning rejon. | 14:14 |
| paulproteus | jakin, FWIW for me the above Python code (running svn trunk and make install) prints me the empty list. | 14:14 |
| paulproteus | I notice you don't seem to use the Derivative Works attribute. | 14:15 |
| jakin | that should be okay if DerivativeWorks isn't specified in the rdf | 14:16 |
| jakin | maybe I have old rdf somewhere | 14:16 |
| paulproteus | Hmm, okay. | 14:16 |
| paulproteus | The RDF file creativecommons.org_licenses_by-nc-nd_3.0_.rdf does not specify Derivative Works. | 14:17 |
| paulproteus | Which is by itself surprising - I would think that it would Prohibit it. | 14:17 |
| paulproteus | For reference mine has md5sum 67478152a88d6fcb1c374061c191426b. | 14:18 |
| jakin | yup, i thought it was gone, but i've got old files sitting around | 14:18 |
| jakin | so apparently a change in the rdf is causing this | 14:19 |
| paulproteus | What if we remove DerivWorks from the chooser's initialization? | 14:19 |
| * paulproteus does so | 14:19 | |
| paulproteus | Also returns empty list. | 14:19 |
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| paulproteus | I guess you think it's a change in the RDF because your 'make install' works but the test harness setup does not? | 14:21 |
| paulproteus | And relatedly my make install does not. | 14:21 |
| paulproteus | What's the md5sum of your creativecommons.org_licenses_by-nc-nd_3.0_.rdf? | 14:22 |
| jakin | actually, nevermind. i was probably using all old code, not just rdf | 14:22 |
| paulproteus | Oh, okay. | 14:22 |
| paulproteus | Well, in a way that's interesting still. | 14:22 |
| jakin | i'm gonna grab some lunch. i'll be hacking on this code that should help with debugging and send you a diff a little later | 14:23 |
| paulproteus | Cool, thanks a bunch. | 14:23 |
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| tvol | bovinity awesome on the new press kit--you bloggin' that goodness? | 14:50 |
| Bovinity | tvol: ta. yes, it should probably get bloggered. | 14:50 |
| jakin | paulproteus, email sent and i'm heading out the door... i'll be back later if you've got any questions | 15:05 |
| paulproteus | Thanks! | 15:05 |
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| luisv | http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/03/27/brief-cc-licensed-specification-rant/ <- mumble | 16:41 |
| paulproteus | luisv, Looks pretty reasonable, send it to ML and CC: me and see what happens. | 16:43 |
| paulproteus | Although I have the feeling somehow that ML reads your blog. | 16:43 |
| luisv | he does in spurts, I think | 16:43 |
| paulproteus | I'm SO HAPPY. | 16:44 |
| paulproteus | I JUST FOUND A BUG I'VE BEEN CHASING FOR OVER TWO WEEKS. | 16:44 |
| luisv | I figured ML, but wanted to discuss it here rather than the slower mail first | 16:44 |
| paulproteus | jakin++ # for helping me get close to the problem | 16:44 |
| luisv | paulproteus: ooh, awesome | 16:44 |
| luisv | yay quashing old bugs | 16:44 |
| paulproteus | (in liblicense, natch.) | 16:44 |
| paulproteus | You have no idea. | 16:44 |
| paulproteus | weeks. | 16:44 |
| paulproteus | Of my life. | 16:44 |
| paulproteus | Well, you do have some idea. | 16:44 |
| paulproteus | Since you program, and all that. | 16:44 |
| paulproteus | Still. (-: | 16:44 |
| paulproteus | Hey, also, I hear you might live in SF for the summer. | 16:45 |
| luisv | s/might// | 16:45 |
| luisv | hrm | 16:45 |
| luisv | s/might/will/ | 16:45 |
| paulproteus | Sweet - we should hang out, then. | 16:45 |
| luisv | absolutely | 16:45 |
| mecredis | yo | 16:46 |
| paulproteus | Yo, mecredis. | 16:46 |
| paulproteus | I hear you will... never mind. | 16:46 |
| mecredis | paulproteus: have some questions about semantic media wiki for you | 16:47 |
| paulproteus | Oh, sweet! | 16:47 |
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| paulproteus | Fire away. | 16:48 |
| mecredis | so have you see www.committeecaller.com | 16:48 |
| mecredis | ? | 16:48 |
| paulproteus | Yeth I have. | 16:48 |
| mecredis | ok so I'm building a new version | 16:49 |
| mecredis | that will be more generalized | 16:49 |
| paulproteus | We are building a religion. | 16:49 |
| mecredis | We are legend. | 16:49 |
| mecredis | or something. | 16:49 |
| mecredis | anyway, I want to implement semantic media wiki | 16:49 |
| mecredis | so that the db can be maintained externally | 16:49 |
| paulproteus | Hey, so you know the NYC JJB, right? | 16:49 |
| mecredis | JJB? | 16:49 |
| paulproteus | John Joseph Bachir | 16:49 |
| paulproteus | He and I have this project that if we're careless (like we are) it will slip through our fingers, and that will suck. | 16:50 |
| mecredis | maybe? | 16:50 |
| paulproteus | But it's also based on SMW. | 16:50 |
| mecredis | name is def. familliar | 16:50 |
| mecredis | ah, cool. | 16:50 |
| paulproteus | Anyway, I'm happy to help projects use SMW but not have me be their bottleneck. (-: | 16:50 |
| mecredis | no no | 16:50 |
| mecredis | not asking for help | 16:50 |
| mecredis | as its my thesis | 16:50 |
| paulproteus | Exactly, so I'm saying I'm happy to advise or whatever. | 16:50 |
| paulproteus | Oh, neat. | 16:50 |
| mecredis | indeed | 16:50 |
| mecredis | so here's the new ver | 16:50 |
| mecredis | http://asterisk.itp.tsoa.nyu.edu/~fcb211/causecaller/ | 16:50 |
| mecredis | in dev | 16:50 |
| mecredis | it sucks and just looks pretty right now | 16:50 |
| mecredis | but the basic idea is to have semantic media wiki look at the federal politicians DB | 16:51 |
| paulproteus | Hah. | 16:51 |
| * paulproteus goes to http://asterisk.itp.tsoa.nyu.edu.nyud.net/~fcb211/causecaller/ just to make the URL longer | 16:51 | |
| mecredis | that I've already set up on committeecaller.com | 16:51 |
| mecredis | so many CC's | 16:51 |
| mecredis | hahahah | 16:51 |
| mecredis | its our asterisk box ... in a dusty dusty corner of the web | 16:51 |
| mecredis | anyway, so just from your perspective | 16:52 |
| mecredis | how painful would it be to integrate SMW into the db now | 16:52 |
| mecredis | versus just re-populating | 16:52 |
| paulproteus | Well, what is the DB backend right now? | 16:52 |
| mecredis | I guess I should just install and see what happens | 16:52 |
| mecredis | its mysql | 16:52 |
| paulproteus | I don't really understand if you understand what SMW is. | 16:52 |
| mecredis | just a table structure I made up | 16:52 |
| mecredis | haha | 16:52 |
| paulproteus | I get the feeling you don't. (-: | 16:52 |
| mecredis | here's my understanding | 16:53 |
| mecredis | its a wiki | 16:53 |
| mecredis | but instead of just storing flat text in the db | 16:53 |
| mecredis | fields can be created for types of pages | 16:53 |
| mecredis | and those fields are semantically meaningful, int he same way that fields in a MySQL table are | 16:53 |
| mecredis | eh? bah? | 16:54 |
| paulproteus | Hi. | 16:56 |
| paulproteus | Sorry, was afk. | 16:56 |
| paulproteus | It doesn't turn your wiki into a SQL-style DB. | 16:56 |
| paulproteus | It turns it into an RDF-style DB. | 16:56 |
| paulproteus | But it would do the job. | 16:57 |
| mecredis | ok | 16:57 |
| mecredis | so in theory I could convert my MySQL db into rdf | 16:57 |
| mecredis | and have smw look at that? | 16:57 |
| paulproteus | You would turn it into wiki pages. | 16:59 |
| paulproteus | Have you done view source of User:Mecredis on wiki.fc.o? | 16:59 |
| mecredis | I will do that | 16:59 |
| paulproteus | That is the kind of thing you should turn your page into. | 16:59 |
| mecredis | right | 16:59 |
| paulproteus | It requires setting up some templates and semantic properties. | 16:59 |
| mecredis | inside smw config? | 16:59 |
| mecredis | ok so here's another question | 17:00 |
| mecredis | suppose I get it all set up | 17:00 |
| mecredis | can I query the SMW externally | 17:00 |
| mecredis | from, say, Asterisk? | 17:00 |
| paulproteus | The way I do that at fc.o is to dump the RDF data that SMW knows about, and do queries on that. | 17:01 |
| mecredis | that's the whole point .. fancy rdf meta-data is nice | 17:01 |
| paulproteus | Basically, "it depends." | 17:01 |
| mecredis | on a cron? | 17:01 |
| mecredis | where does it "live" ? | 17:01 |
| paulproteus | It can't do generic queries yet, so if you want a query it doesn't support, you dump it via cron (if you're me). | 17:01 |
| mecredis | ah, right | 17:01 |
| mecredis | that's the question | 17:01 |
| mecredis | interesting | 17:01 |
| mecredis | so what are the kinds of queries it supports? | 17:01 |
| mecredis | (e.g. finding everyone's jabber inside the FC.o wiki isn't supported, but finding all user names / etc is) ? | 17:02 |
| paulproteus | Note that it *can* do basic queries - get me all the properties associated with e.g. http://wiki.freeculture.org/Free_Culture_%40_NYU | 17:02 |
| mecredis | could you ask "get me all the phone numbers from chapter heads" ? | 17:02 |
| paulproteus | e.g., click on "RDF feed" there and you get a live dump of all the data it knows about FC.o NYU. | 17:03 |
| paulproteus | Not right now re: that query, except via the dump, in which case you can (you'd write a SPARQL query to answer that question). | 17:03 |
| paulproteus | I hope that I'm making some sense. | 17:03 |
| mecredis | let me grok it | 17:03 |
| paulproteus | SPARQL is a generic query language to query piles of RDF data. | 17:03 |
| mecredis | the SPARQL query is what? | 17:03 |
| mecredis | ok | 17:03 |
| mecredis | so you basically dump the rdf data | 17:04 |
| paulproteus | RDF is a data format that expresses a list of "triples". | 17:04 |
| mecredis | and it lives somewhere on the server | 17:04 |
| paulproteus | Yes - it secretly lives in a MySQL DB that you shouldn't access directly. | 17:04 |
| mecredis | which gets populated by a cron | 17:04 |
| paulproteus | Ermp. | 17:04 |
| mecredis | or you can just do SPARQL? | 17:04 |
| paulproteus | Hold your horses. | 17:04 |
| paulproteus | Here are the facts. | 17:04 |
| mecredis | hah | 17:05 |
| mecredis | thanks for putting up with this btw | 17:05 |
| paulproteus | Well, I really need to figure out how to teach this stuff. | 17:05 |
| paulproteus | Since I'm such a fan of SMW, RDF, semantic web, etc. | 17:05 |
| mecredis | haha | 17:05 |
| mecredis | indeed | 17:05 |
| paulproteus | 1. Semantic MW lets you store facts of format "$THING has $PROPERTY set to $VALUE" | 17:05 |
| mecredis | got it. | 17:05 |
| paulproteus | like "{Free Culture @ NYU} has property {Coremembers} set to value {8}". | 17:05 |
| mecredis | indeed. | 17:06 |
| paulproteus | That happens to be the same style as RDF. | 17:06 |
| mecredis | the triplet | 17:06 |
| paulproteus | They're called triples, but yeah. | 17:06 |
| mecredis | heh | 17:06 |
| paulproteus | So SMW supports some basic queries through the SMW software, but in a pinch, you can ask SMW to dump you a big pile of RDF statements that, together, are the knowledge stored in your wiki. | 17:07 |
| paulproteus | And then you can query that in a different RDF handling package. | 17:07 |
| paulproteus | This is how freeculture.org/chapters/ gets generated. | 17:07 |
| mecredis | e.g. SPARQL | 17:07 |
| paulproteus | Right, though in practice I don't use SPARQL, I use something dumber than that. | 17:07 |
| mecredis | ah, so that is populated by the smw | 17:08 |
| paulproteus | Right - but they're delayed due to the fact that the RDF dump happens via a cron job. | 17:08 |
| mecredis | that's OK | 17:08 |
| mecredis | how often? how long does it take? | 17:08 |
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| paulproteus | I think I do it daily, and it takes 30s-1m I think. | 17:09 |
| paulproteus | I don't really remember. | 17:09 |
| mecredis | ok not huge | 17:09 |
| mecredis | so just to recap | 17:09 |
| mecredis | my general goal here | 17:09 |
| mecredis | is to | 17:09 |
| paulproteus | type very little but press | 17:10 |
| paulproteus | enter | 17:10 |
| paulproteus | a lot | 17:10 |
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| mecredis | 1. Somehow convert the table / db I have now of federal politicians, their phone numbers, districts, party affiliations, and committee associations to RDF | 17:10 |
| mecredis | 2. Import that into a SMW install | 17:10 |
| mecredis | 3. Have that go live and exist | 17:10 |
| paulproteus | Wait, general goal, or way to proceed? | 17:10 |
| mecredis | well the way I think I'm going to do it | 17:11 |
| mecredis | hahah | 17:11 |
| paulproteus | Your general goal is to make this DB publicly editable in a way that integrates seamlessly with the rest of your site. | 17:11 |
| paulproteus | As I understand. | 17:11 |
| mecredis | right, exactly | 17:11 |
| mecredis | and have it maintainable | 17:11 |
| mecredis | by someone besides me | 17:11 |
| paulproteus | (-: | 17:11 |
| paulproteus | BTW, it would be nice to automate some of this, but that's another story. | 17:11 |
| paulproteus | In my opinion, the strategy you *should* pursue is: | 17:11 |
| mecredis | as in importing from other people databases? | 17:11 |
| paulproteus | Right. | 17:11 |
| mecredis | yeah that sucks right now | 17:11 |
| mecredis | and costs $$ | 17:11 |
| paulproteus | Scrape senate.gov for committee membership -> party time. | 17:11 |
| paulproteus | Scraping is free. | 17:11 |
| mecredis | already did that | 17:11 |
| paulproteus | Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. | 17:12 |
| mecredis | that is the db I have now | 17:12 |
| paulproteus | Sweet. | 17:12 |
| mecredis | its actually a better, longer story than that | 17:12 |
| paulproteus | Anyway, here's what you should do: | 17:12 |
| paulproteus | 1. Create a test install of SMW that you know you will throw away | 17:12 |
| mecredis | almost there | 17:12 |
| paulproteus | 2. Install Semantic Forms as well | 17:12 |
| mecredis | ok | 17:12 |
| paulproteus | 3. Learn how Semantic Forms and SMW together handle properties, templates, and forms | 17:12 |
| mecredis | create some fake politician pages, etc. | 17:12 |
| paulproteus | and categories, right. | 17:12 |
| paulproteus | Bingo. | 17:12 |
| paulproteus | And then you'll understand that the way to do the import is to generate MW template pages. | 17:13 |
| paulproteus | FWIW, I just did something just like this about three days here. | 17:13 |
| mecredis | fascinating | 17:13 |
| mecredis | well I'm talking to the right person | 17:13 |
| mecredis | OK, well thanks a lot for your advice here | 17:13 |
| mecredis | I may call on it some more | 17:13 |
| paulproteus | Great. | 17:13 |
| paulproteus | Be warned: | 17:14 |
| paulproteus | Free advice is seldom cheap. | 17:14 |
| mecredis | haha | 17:14 |
| mecredis | I know | 17:14 |
| mecredis | my hope here is to create a smw that has meaningful information that I can open up | 17:14 |
| mecredis | there are some other wikis out there | 17:14 |
| mecredis | where people maintain information about bills, and so on | 17:14 |
| paulproteus | RDF is also the best hope for inter-website data exchange, fwiw. | 17:14 |
| mecredis | but it'd be fantastic to do one for state politicians etc. | 17:15 |
| mecredis | yeah | 17:15 |
| paulproteus | If you haven't read http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/Primer.html , I suggest reading it carefully. | 17:17 |
| paulproteus | It's not long, and it explains more clearly than I. | 17:17 |
| mecredis | OK | 17:17 |
| mecredis | thanks | 17:17 |
| paulproteus | It's "just" an explanation of what RDF/the Semantic Web are about, but those ideas are important in getting good use out of SMW. | 17:17 |
| mecredis | indeed | 17:18 |
| paulproteus | Especially "Sharing concepts". | 17:18 |
| mecredis | heh | 17:18 |
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| paulproteus | jakin, I found the bug. | 17:26 |
| paulproteus | It's "I'm a moron" o'clock again. | 17:26 |
| jakin | paulproteus, oh? so what was the problem? | 17:27 |
| paulproteus | Remember how I changed ll_prohibits into ll_get_attribute(u, LL_PROHIBITS)? | 17:27 |
| paulproteus | Well, I actually changed one ll_prohibits() into ll_get_attribute(u, LL_PERMITS). | 17:27 |
| paulproteus | So the heap never had any PROHIBITS info in it! | 17:27 |
| paulproteus | That was over two months ago. So you can imagine how I feel. | 17:28 |
| jakin | wow :-P | 17:28 |
| jakin | sweet that's it's finally fixed | 17:29 |
| paulproteus | For real! | 17:29 |
| paulproteus | Now I just have to put the test back to the way it was. (-: | 17:29 |
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| hdworak | hi :) | 17:57 |
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| paulproteus | Hey hdworak! | 18:01 |
| hdworak | :) | 18:01 |
| hdworak | my name is Hugo. ;) I've got some questions about the GSOC if you would be so kind to take a few minutes to answer them | 18:09 |
| hdworak | it's about the "rewrite ccvalidator" project | 18:09 |
| hdworak | nathany maybe? | 18:09 |
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| l0l | yous have one cc valid? | 18:37 |
| hdworak | ? :) | 18:38 |
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| l0l | hdworak give one valid? :P | 18:39 |
| l0l | ops | 18:39 |
| paulproteus | l0l, Yes one sec | 18:39 |
| hdworak | sorry, but I don't quite get it | 18:40 |
| hdworak | :) | 18:40 |
| jakin | gsoc++ :-P | 18:44 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, He wants a credit card number because he thinks this a credit card fraud channel. | 18:48 |
| paulproteus | I've alerted the FBI. | 18:48 |
| paulproteus | Anyway, hdworak, I'm happy to discuss the validator. | 18:48 |
| hdworak | oh, I'd never guess | 18:48 |
| paulproteus | If you google "#cc IRC" you'll see. (-: | 18:48 |
| hdworak | :) | 18:48 |
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| hdworak | yeah, now that you explained it it's clear, but I'm a foreigner and the "cc" abbreviation is not obvious to me | 18:50 |
| paulproteus | Anyway, let's talk about GSoc. (-: | 18:51 |
| hdworak | in your guidelines for a good proposal, you write that "2 months" pass quickly | 18:51 |
| hdworak | ain't it so, that GSOC lasts 3 months? | 18:51 |
| paulproteus | They might have changed the schedule since we wrote that. (-: | 18:52 |
| hdworak | ok | 18:52 |
| hdworak | in your proposal: | 18:52 |
| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Rewrite_Metadata_Validator | 18:52 |
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| hdworak | what does "assertions about embedded objects" mean? traversing for SVG license information of something, that is not on a Web site but within the file? | 18:53 |
| hdworak | (3 point of the minimum implementation features) | 18:53 |
| hdworak | 3rd* | 18:53 |
| paulproteus | You should email nathany about that, but it means either: | 18:53 |
| paulproteus | (a) handling RDFa that annotates e.g. <a href="something"> with a license field, or | 18:54 |
| paulproteus | (b) downloading referenced documents and reading their license metadata | 18:54 |
| paulproteus | But I'm pretty sure it means (a). | 18:54 |
| paulproteus | If you email him, paste the exact text I wrote to make sure he knows what I was thinking when I said these things. | 18:54 |
| hdworak | ok, so the proposal is by nathany? | 18:55 |
| paulproteus | Yup (although I'm moderately knowledgeable on the topics, so I can answer most questions). | 18:55 |
| hdworak | what are ccTools - is this some special kind of software or a general name for cc* tools? | 18:55 |
| paulproteus | And really, this is not a "proposal" but a suggestion for a proposal you write, just to be clear on terminology. | 18:56 |
| paulproteus | (As I understand things) | 18:56 |
| hdworak | yes, of course | 18:56 |
| paulproteus | re: ccTools - yeah, it's a general name for CC software stuff. | 18:56 |
| paulproteus | We used to publish our work in a SourceForge.net SVN repository called cctools | 18:56 |
| hdworak | what is the license for the ccrdf if the ccrdf-0.5.0.dev-r669/src/rdfextract.py appears to have a MIT license (lines 1-19) and then line 32 says it is licensed under GNU GPL 2 | 18:56 |
| hdworak | I may nopaste.org for your convinience | 18:56 |
| paulproteus | Please! | 18:57 |
| hdworak | ok, just a sec | 18:57 |
| paulproteus | That probably means GPL 2, since MIT licensed code can be relicensed as GPL v2. | 18:57 |
| paulproteus | (or v3) | 18:57 |
| Bovinity | dual license? | 18:57 |
| paulproteus | Dueling licenses? | 18:57 |
| hdworak | http://nopaste.org/p/a4HNkrXwpb/txt | 18:57 |
| paulproteus | Buh, email nathan about that also. | 18:58 |
| Bovinity | i need a BANJO REUSE LICENSE. | 18:58 |
| paulproteus | That's rather odd. | 18:58 |
| Bovinity | It'll require dueling me if you wish to reuse my work. | 18:58 |
| hdworak | :) | 18:58 |
| hdworak | does ccrdf make TRAMP obsolete (this could remove the need for such a strict license like GNU GPL)? | 18:58 |
| paulproteus | That's Aaronsw's TRAMP? | 18:59 |
| paulproteus | I think it's unmaintained anyway. | 18:59 |
| hdworak | yeah | 18:59 |
| paulproteus | How about this answer, "It's already made itself obsolete". (-; | 18:59 |
| hdworak | 'cause rdfdict.py is by Nathan and it does not refer to TRAMP, but seems to be doing the same thing | 18:59 |
| hdworak | what if the Web site is not a valid XML (missing closing tags) or XHTML (has no doctype)? then I cannot use DOM to manipulate it. should I use tidy then? should we ignore such Web pages and display a warning only (much the same as on other validators) | 19:00 |
| paulproteus | tidy is a reasonable approach for that. | 19:00 |
| hdworak | or shall we just ignore all this and proceed to the <!-- <rdf parts | 19:00 |
| paulproteus | The <!-- <rdf is deprecated anyway. | 19:00 |
| paulproteus | We prefer RDFa these days. | 19:00 |
| hdworak | separate RDF files? | 19:01 |
| paulproteus | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/RDFa | 19:02 |
| hdworak | no, ok | 19:02 |
| hdworak | I found at w3.org | 19:02 |
| hdworak | sorry about a faq-like question | 19:02 |
| paulproteus | (-: | 19:02 |
| hdworak | what license is preferred for this project from the cc devs point of view? | 19:02 |
| paulproteus | Either MIT license or "GPL v2 or later, at your option". | 19:03 |
| paulproteus | Clearly we use both, sometimes for the same file. (-; | 19:03 |
| hdworak | what's your opinion on Apache 2.0 ? | 19:03 |
| paulproteus | It's not GPLv2 compatible, which is a drag. | 19:03 |
| hdworak | and why GPLv2 not GPLv3? (just for compatibility with ye old software or smthing more?) | 19:04 |
| paulproteus | Yeah, exactly. | 19:04 |
| paulproteus | For now, we like compatibility. | 19:04 |
| hdworak | is running a blog about the project while working on it a plus? | 19:05 |
| paulproteus | Yes - we'll ask you to blog on techblog.creativecommons.org probably. | 19:06 |
| hdworak | do I get some kind of a hosting for this project while working on it or should I organise it myself (although this is not a problem; if so, what is the version of the software they are running? is shell, ftps, svn/cvs/git etc. access possible?) | 19:07 |
| paulproteus | You will get git or svn hosting through us. | 19:08 |
| hdworak | ok | 19:08 |
| paulproteus | And I think (I'm not sure about this) you can get a shell account one of our servers to run your app on as you develop. | 19:08 |
| hdworak | which related tools are no longer updated? (I've checked as much as I could, but maybe you know better) | 19:09 |
| hdworak | ccValidator (cc by nc) - as a proof of concept; last update in January 2005 | 19:10 |
| hdworak | ccrdf (MIT license or GNU GPL 2 - ambiguous) - last updated in July 2006 | 19:10 |
| hdworak | RDFlib (BSD 3-clause) - last updated in April 2007 | 19:10 |
| hdworak | TRAMP - ok, now I know it's obsolete | 19:10 |
| hdworak | mozCC (MPL 1.1) - last updated last updated in November 2004 | 19:10 |
| paulproteus | Embarrassingly, nearly none of them are maintained. | 19:11 |
| Bovinity | there was a more recent mozcc update | 19:11 |
| Bovinity | 06 or 07 | 19:11 |
| paulproteus | RDFLib is maintained, but not by us. | 19:11 |
| hdworak | rdfadict (MIT) - last updated in June 2007 | 19:11 |
| paulproteus | Yup, that's maintained by nathany. | 19:12 |
| hdworak | ok, but if I understand correctly, in terms of software, it's like 9 months since any progress? | 19:12 |
| paulproteus | On which project? | 19:12 |
| hdworak | all mentioned | 19:12 |
| paulproteus | Sure, but most of those aren't directly related to your work on the validator. | 19:13 |
| paulproteus | rdfadict is pretty mature at this point, I think. | 19:13 |
| hdworak | I got that from the ccValidator references | 19:13 |
| paulproteus | The validator is practically eons since any progress; the other stuff is either dependencies that are maintained (like rdflib) or side projects that aren't really (MozCC). | 19:13 |
| paulproteus | Although sometime I will fix up MozCC a little, hopefully before the summer. | 19:13 |
| hdworak | so which tools that were used to build the old software are still relevant in context of the next version? (aside of rdfadict of course) | 19:14 |
| paulproteus | rdfadict uses rdflib. | 19:14 |
| hdworak | (unless you want to me to figure it out by myself - I just ask first) | 19:14 |
| paulproteus | Just those two, really. | 19:14 |
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| hdworak | ok | 19:15 |
| hdworak | now I'd like to ask you on your opinion about some ideas I came up with for this | 19:15 |
| hdworak | :) | 19:15 |
| paulproteus | Cool. | 19:16 |
| hdworak | handling file uploads as yet another mean of input, | 19:16 |
| hdworak | ? | 19:16 |
| paulproteus | That could be nice, sure. | 19:16 |
| hdworak | I've seen that on other validators | 19:16 |
| hdworak | logging for the purpose of statistics (e.g. to see which license is popular for a particular file format), understanding of the problems that users | 19:16 |
| hdworak | may be experiencing while licensing their content using RDF, and caching (if redundant duplicate requests are sent, but taking into account the traversal)? | 19:17 |
| paulproteus | Interesting re: logging - that could be good! | 19:17 |
| paulproteus | As for caching, I wouldn't worry too much about that. | 19:17 |
| hdworak | internationalisation of the application providing an easy solution to translate it to another language, | 19:18 |
| hdworak | ? | 19:18 |
| hdworak | (like the cc website itself is multilanguage) | 19:18 |
| paulproteus | Yes! | 19:19 |
| paulproteus | Good thinking there. | 19:19 |
| paulproteus | We'd love it if your app supported PO files for translation. | 19:19 |
| hdworak | do you mean i18n? | 19:19 |
| hdworak | PO? | 19:19 |
| hdworak | googling | 19:20 |
| paulproteus | PO files are the gettext format. | 19:20 |
| paulproteus | You can treat that as a second-stage feature. | 19:20 |
| hdworak | http://translationproject.org/latest/GNUnet/de.po | 19:20 |
| hdworak | like this? | 19:20 |
| paulproteus | Yup. | 19:20 |
| hdworak | conformance of the Web site of the validator to the XHTML 1.1 specification with a fallback to XHTML 1.0 Transitional (plus valid CSS and Unicode), | 19:20 |
| paulproteus | The first stage of the project shouldn't worry extensively about translation; there's so much to get done that I think that would be at the second stage. | 19:20 |
| hdworak | (current ccValidator is HTML 4.01 with the default ISO 8859-1) | 19:21 |
| hdworak | ? | 19:21 |
| paulproteus | HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.0/1.1 is okay, so long as it validates. | 19:21 |
| paulproteus | And whichever you pick, it should be easy. | 19:21 |
| paulproteus | Since you're writing the site from scratch. | 19:21 |
| hdworak | appearance similar to the current Web site of Creative Commons or even using the same layout with the same style sheets etc.? | 19:22 |
| Bovinity | yes | 19:22 |
| hdworak | :) | 19:23 |
| hdworak | Mr. Senior Designer | 19:23 |
| Bovinity | ;) | 19:23 |
| Bovinity | although i prefer Se?or Designer | 19:24 |
| hdworak | do ppl who are likely to mentor have Jabber IDs? (or we would just continue to IRC, mailing list etc.) | 19:24 |
| paulproteus | I prefer Señor. | 19:24 |
| hdworak | what are your preferences? | 19:24 |
| paulproteus | I prefer IRC, but I think nathany prefers AIM or Jabber. | 19:25 |
| paulproteus | I'll hopefully get him to have you talk on IRC instead. (-: | 19:25 |
| hdworak | I'm using Pidgin so it's the same for me | 19:25 |
| paulproteus | I use XChat for IRC and AIM, but that's another story. (-: | 19:25 |
| hdworak | ok, thank you for your answers | 19:26 |
| paulproteus | Thanks for having a conversation. (-: | 19:26 |
| hdworak | the proposal is 70% ready, now I need to study the two tools you've mentioned plus RDFa etc. | 19:27 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, I for one really hope you finish applying. (-: | 19:27 |
| hdworak | and then I might come up with a few more questions or just end up with the proposal | 19:27 |
| paulproteus | Bovinity, FYI I made a git module of the jurisdiction icons. | 19:27 |
| paulproteus | Either way, I look forward to it. | 19:27 |
| hdworak | :) | 19:28 |
| Bovinity | the flags? | 19:28 |
| Bovinity | i18n NC? | 19:28 |
| hdworak | bye bye! | 19:28 |
| paulproteus | Bovinity, ? | 19:28 |
| paulproteus | Oh, the flags. | 19:28 |
| paulproteus | Yeah. | 19:28 |
| Bovinity | not sure what you mean by.. ok | 19:28 |
| paulproteus | http://code.creativecommons.org/svnroot/ccwordpress/trunk/www/images/international/ in particular. | 19:28 |
| paulproteus | (for liblicense, so it can store them in a git submodule) | 19:29 |
| Bovinity | now if we can get CCi to start using git, that'll be one more thing they can do themselves when setting up jurisdiction pages | 19:29 |
| paulproteus | make[222]: Entering directory `/home/paulproteus/gitted/liblicense/modules' | 19:29 |
| paulproteus | make[223]: Entering directory `/home/paulproteus/gitted/liblicense/modules' | 19:29 |
| paulproteus | make[223]: Nothing to be done for `install-exec-am'. | 19:29 |
| paulproteus | make[223]: Nothing to be done for `install-data-am'. | 19:29 |
| paulproteus | make[223]: Leaving directory `/home/paulproteus/gitted/liblicense/modules' | 19:29 |
| paulproteus | make[222]: Leaving directory `/home/paulproteus/gitted/liblicense/modules' | 19:29 |
| paulproteus | make[221]: Leaving directory `/home/paulproteus/gitted/liblicense/modules' | 19:29 |
| paulproteus | Hmm, infinite Make loop again. | 19:29 |
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