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| CC_Hudson | Yippie, build fixed! | 01:05 |
|---|---|---|
| CC_Hudson | Project deedscraper build (40): FIXED in 4 min 17 sec: http://code.creativecommons.org/hudson/job/deedscraper/40/ | 01:05 |
| CC_Hudson | Project cc.engine build (101): STILL FAILING in 5 min 57 sec: http://code.creativecommons.org/hudson/job/cc.engine/101/ | 01:06 |
| CC_Hudson | Project metadata_scraper build (41): SUCCESS in 1 min 42 sec: http://code.creativecommons.org/hudson/job/metadata_scraper/41/ | 01:07 |
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| netAction | Hello! | 09:11 |
| netAction | I would like to use CC for an photo shooting. | 09:11 |
| netAction | The contract must include the rights of the model and some other photography specific details. | 09:12 |
| netAction | Is there any ready to use contract or does the CC have layers that could write such a contract? | 09:12 |
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| dAnjou | hi, is it possible to get images of my license with higher resolution? | 09:46 |
| netAction | http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cc-by_white.svg | 10:00 |
| netAction | Here are all icons as vector graphics. | 10:00 |
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| juk | Im c noob, here my pastebin 496958, how do I make it now instead of using hardcoded string to take from stdin? | 11:42 |
| netAction | First step is to choose the correct channel. | 11:43 |
| juk | netAction: what channel? | 11:44 |
| dAnjou | #<your programming language>-<your native language> | 11:45 |
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| paroneayea | hello #cc | 18:52 |
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| paroneayea | nkinkade: this bug is bizarre | 19:39 |
| paroneayea | at first I thought it was simple | 19:39 |
| paroneayea | because indeed, license.title()'s call in the result page of the template wasn't passing in target_lang | 19:39 |
| nkinkade | Turns out to be something not so easy to find, paroneayea? | 19:39 |
| paroneayea | but it turns out even when I switched it so that it does | 19:40 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: Varnish??? | 19:40 |
| paroneayea | somehow target_lang got turned into 'en' inside the template rendering | 19:40 |
| nkinkade | Oh. | 19:40 |
| paroneayea | even though outside the render, in the python view | 19:40 |
| paroneayea | I can see context['target_lang'] == 'pt' | 19:40 |
| paroneayea | weird stuff | 19:40 |
| nkinkade | Strange. | 19:40 |
| paroneayea | I wonder if ZPT overrides that somewhere and I didn't know | 19:40 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: If that really is a bug, then perhaps you should create a ticket for it? | 19:44 |
| nkinkade | I didn't right away, because it wasn't 100% clear to me that it was bug in the code. | 19:44 |
| CC_Hudson | Project cc.engine build (102): STILL FAILING in 3 min 13 sec: http://code.creativecommons.org/hudson/job/cc.engine/102/ | 19:49 |
| CC_Hudson | Christopher Allan Webber: license.title should be license.title(target_lang) | 19:49 |
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| nkinkade | paroneayea: The person also mentioned that the license titles on the deeds on staging weren't reflecting the license titles as he translated them in the PO file. | 19:59 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: yeah, I have no idea how to fix that one | 20:00 |
| nkinkade | You'll notice here: http://staging.creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.5/pt/ | 20:00 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: Which one? The earlier bug? | 20:01 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: problem here is that we're running the license title out of the RDF now | 20:01 |
| paroneayea | and the rdf files have to be "regenerated" with the different translation components | 20:01 |
| paroneayea | and then after regenerated with translations, all re-merged into one big index.rdf file | 20:01 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: Ah, so this is just a staging "bug"? | 20:01 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: it's harder than the other staging bugs | 20:02 |
| nkinkade | When the licenses are launched on the live site, the license titles will be correct. | 20:02 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: so, maybe we could automate this, | 20:02 |
| nkinkade | Just to be sure, I'm also talking about something different now, and not the email I sent to webmaster@ | 20:02 |
| paroneayea | yes, you are talking about a harder, messier bug :) | 20:02 |
| paroneayea | where those translations have to be regenerated inside the RDF | 20:03 |
| paroneayea | inside the *license* rdf *file* | 20:03 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: So you mean the one about the license titles not getting updated from the PO ... not about the English license names in the chooser, right? | 20:03 |
| paroneayea | yes. | 20:03 |
| nkinkade | Ah. | 20:03 |
| paroneayea | so let me explain a bit better why this is a mess: | 20:03 |
| nkinkade | Well, as long as it's something you are aware of and we can be assured that when some translations go live, that titles will be correctly rendered as they are in the PO file. | 20:04 |
| paroneayea | they will be... if you ask me to regenerate the license titles inside the RDF :) | 20:05 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: And you have scripts that automate that? | 20:05 |
| paroneayea | I have the scripts, but this can't be automated on a cronjob/hook easily | 20:05 |
| nkinkade | :-( | 20:06 |
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| paroneayea | because the regeneration *completely* regenerates the files, and then all the regenerated files have to be merged into a brand-new index.rdf | 20:06 |
| paroneayea | so it's a HUGE commit difference | 20:06 |
| paroneayea | bloating the repository by many megabytes every time it's done | 20:06 |
| paroneayea | this is because RDF does not preserve ordering. | 20:07 |
| paroneayea | if we want to ever automate this, we need to figure out how to write an RDF writer/serializer that somehow tracks ordering | 20:07 |
| paroneayea | that's the price/cost of the two factors of: | 20:08 |
| nkinkade | Why do we store them as RDF, again? | 20:08 |
| nkinkade | (That is somewhat of a rhetorical question, though not 100%) | 20:09 |
| nkinkade | Seems like a pain in the ass, for not much benefit, and just a lot of headaches. | 20:09 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: part of "sanity" is that "the RDF should be good enough to be the database" | 20:09 |
| nkinkade | Yeah, but I'm rather wondering why we don't just *use* a database, then we could have scripts that could output just about any format we wanted. | 20:10 |
| paroneayea | the idea was that applies to license titles as well | 20:10 |
| paroneayea | well | 20:10 |
| nkinkade | Who uses this RDF except CC? | 20:10 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: at this point rewriting the tools to NOT use the RDF would be an insane overhaul | 20:10 |
| paroneayea | this is the *only* problem where the RDF is "not good enough" | 20:11 |
| paroneayea | all that data is already there | 20:11 |
| nkinkade | I know. I'm just wondering how we ever went down the RDF road in the first place. It's a pointless question since we can't turn back now. | 20:11 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: Actually, I've seen emails where people are asking, now is RDF the only format for this data? | 20:11 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: the answer to that is now "yes" | 20:12 |
| paroneayea | that was one of the goals of sanity | 20:12 |
| paroneayea | any other formats should be generated FROM the RDF | 20:12 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: there are a couple of fixes to the license title problem which don't involve us scrapping RDF | 20:12 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: But so few people have experience writing code around and processing RDF. | 20:12 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: that's true, though what other format would we use? | 20:13 |
| nkinkade | It almost seems like we chose RDF to be "correct" at the expense of making it a huge project for ourselves. | 20:13 |
| paroneayea | XML? | 20:13 |
| paroneayea | no, I don't think that's true | 20:14 |
| paroneayea | RDF works nicely and is fairly elegant as our datastore, with the exception of | 20:14 |
| paroneayea | - the current license title issue (fixable) | 20:14 |
| paroneayea | - few people know about RDF but CC :\ | 20:15 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: I'm not sure about which format is best. At first glance I have to wonder why it must be a file format at all and not really in a database where the data is extracted into whatever format we have bothered to write a script to pull out. | 20:15 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: I'm not sure what benefit a database would provide | 20:15 |
| paroneayea | I imagine it would create a lot *more* problems | 20:15 |
| paroneayea | because: | 20:15 |
| paroneayea | - we'd have to extract it to some other formats anyway | 20:16 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: Standardized tools that have huge support and are commonly understood. | 20:16 |
| paroneayea | - we'd have to provide a "dump" of the database regularly | 20:16 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: We have to extract it from the RDF as it is. | 20:16 |
| nkinkade | The RDF is essentially an inscrutable file for virtually any human, and most code. | 20:16 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: by extract it I mean "provide it in a format that non-cc people can use" | 20:17 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: I'm not saying I'm a fan of RDF ;) | 20:17 |
| paroneayea | but I don't think a database that we'd provide (and would have to host a public accessible interface for querying) would be better | 20:17 |
| paroneayea | and no other file based solution really seems much better | 20:17 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: Out of curiosity, what is the performance of the python RDF libs? I mean, to extract the data into some usable format is some RDF query faster than, say, a MySQL query? | 20:18 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: I don't think performance is really that great, it's "fast enough" and then we have caching ;) | 20:18 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: let me put it this way | 20:19 |
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| paroneayea | say we were running it out of MySQL | 20:19 |
| paroneayea | - how would non-CC employees query our license database? | 20:19 |
| nkinkade | Hmm. Well, anyway, I guess I'm mostly curious about this from a historical perspective ... like, how did we get here. RDF is what it is and it's what we have and it's here to stay, apparently. | 20:19 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: Let me answer that with another question. How does WordPress extract all that data for blog viewers? | 20:20 |
| paroneayea | lol | 20:20 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: by posting it in a non-very-parsable HTML rendering? | 20:21 |
| nkinkade | Writing code, in pretty much any language, to extract data out of a relational database is mostly trivial. | 20:21 |
| nkinkade | haha | 20:21 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: I think you're right that we should provide a version that people can query | 20:21 |
| paroneayea | that isn't RDF. | 20:22 |
| nkinkade | But the point is, once it's in a MySQL database, there are thousands of tools and many languages and libraries that can be used to extract the data into whatever format, including HTML. | 20:22 |
| paroneayea | I think an XML export would be good | 20:22 |
| paroneayea | since every language has XML parsing tools | 20:22 |
| nkinkade | Yeah, XML is pretty well supported, as is SQL. | 20:22 |
| nkinkade | In any case, I'm sure there are other good reasons for RDF that I just don't know about ... ones that NRY and/or Mike could point out. | 20:23 |
| paroneayea | at the very least, it makes sense having RDF as the canonical version from which "other versions" are exported because of RDFa | 20:23 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: But the RDF we have is hardly like the RDFa that gets put into our little HTML code snippets from the chooser. | 20:24 |
| nkinkade | It's only a 1-to-1 conceptually. | 20:24 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: it's consistent with the namespacing of CCRel and etc | 20:24 |
| nkinkade | But then again, there could conceptually be a 1-to-1 between RDFa and some database schema. | 20:25 |
| nkinkade | I haven't really looked at the RDF much. I'm wondering how much data duplication there is in those files. | 20:25 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: one thing I have to say about the RDF approach we have: | 20:26 |
| paroneayea | you don't need to worry about "syncing" your SQL tables and everything across machines | 20:27 |
| paroneayea | where things are deployed and etc | 20:27 |
| paroneayea | which is a real PITA | 20:27 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: So how do you sync the RDF across machines? | 20:27 |
| nkinkade | "sync", that is. | 20:27 |
| nkinkade | rsync? | 20:27 |
| nkinkade | mysqldump > mysql is pretty trivial and reliable, too. | 20:28 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: you can package all the files in a tarball. Or, in our case, check them out of a git repository, or download them with easy_install inside the python egg | 20:28 |
| nkinkade | Though I will admit that transferring text files is simpler, without a doubt. | 20:28 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: yeah but not usable really as plaintext files, and you have to deal with schema consistency and etc, blehhhhh | 20:28 |
| nkinkade | Yeah, I guess I can see some benefit in their portability. | 20:28 |
| paroneayea | a JSON-based DB like mongodb or whatever wouldn't be so bad | 20:28 |
| paroneayea | at least that exports to files effortlessly | 20:29 |
| nkinkade | But here's really another point in my mind: who consumes this RDF except for CC? | 20:29 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: and THAT is a good, worthwhile question, I think :) | 20:29 |
| paroneayea | nobody really, and that's a problem | 20:30 |
| nkinkade | That someone can checkout the code and build their own egg seems of little interest to me, as nobody else is goingt o launch their own cc.engine. | 20:30 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: actually scratch that | 20:30 |
| nkinkade | Is it really a problem? Who else needs it? | 20:30 |
| nkinkade | I can see people needing/wanting the API as a public way of finding things out about the CC licenses. | 20:31 |
| nkinkade | But I'm not sure else would need or really want RDF. | 20:31 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: that's probably true | 20:31 |
| paroneayea | although they'd probably want an SQL dump even less ;) | 20:31 |
| nkinkade | haha | 20:32 |
| nkinkade | Right, but it would be trivial to write some code that gave the user a dropdown to select a format, and then click "Go" and have some file(s) generated based on some data in a database. | 20:32 |
| nkinkade | I guess you can do that with RDF, too. | 20:33 |
| nkinkade | But it just seems more difficult. But I do agree that text files are sort of nice ... | 20:33 |
| nkinkade | Just not terribly efficient in this case, perhaps. | 20:33 |
| nkinkade | Oh well. It's all fine. | 20:33 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: I am not really a big defender of RDF, and I don't know a lot about alternatives | 20:33 |
| paroneayea | but all the alternatives don't seem better that I know | 20:33 |
| paroneayea | they just have different problems | 20:33 |
| nkinkade | Yeah, I don't either. And it could be true that it's about the best alternative for what we wanted all in all. | 20:34 |
| nkinkade | I assume that was the rationale for choosing it in the first place. :-) | 20:34 |
| paroneayea | the license.title translation mess is a problem though, and we do agree on that! %) | 20:34 |
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| nkinkade | But there has been a side of me that has wanted to re-implement the deeds and chooser in with PHP and MySQL ... just for fun. | 20:35 |
| nkinkade | :-) | 20:35 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: you have fun with that! ;) | 20:35 |
| nkinkade | Not that it would ever get used, but just as proof to myself that all this could be so much simpler than it is. | 20:35 |
| paroneayea | sounds like a good way to spend a vacation! | 20:35 |
| nkinkade | Not really. | 20:35 |
| nkinkade | haha | 20:35 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: I have one word as to why things are complicated: history | 20:36 |
| nkinkade | That project is not going to get beyond the fantasy stage. | 20:36 |
| paroneayea | anything with a lot of history has a lot of inefficiencies | 20:36 |
| paroneayea | unix has a lot of terrible things | 20:36 |
| paroneayea | want to rewrite it? | 20:36 |
| nkinkade | Yeah. Seems like we've got a boat load of code all to handle what is ostensibly some very simple requirements and circumstances. | 20:37 |
| paroneayea | at least it is getting simpler, slowly | 20:37 |
| paroneayea | I think! :) | 20:37 |
| nkinkade | I'm not sure UNIX is a good comparison ... an OS is vastly complex because it does a vast amount of things. | 20:37 |
| nkinkade | The CC license chooser, and the Deeds and API aren't complicated at all from a user perspective. | 20:38 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: believe me, if you told me it was going to take a year to finish a rewrite on what looked like a dropdown at cc.org/choose/... ;) | 20:38 |
| nkinkade | haha | 20:38 |
| nkinkade | I know! | 20:38 |
| nkinkade | That's what I'm talking about. It's a single page with a few radio buttons and a select box that generates 2 lines of HTML. | 20:38 |
| nkinkade | Yet we have hundreds of RDF files, thousands of lines of code and lots of time invested in producing those few lines of HTML. | 20:39 |
| mralex | O_o | 20:39 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: which is why I have a hard time explaining my job to people ;) | 20:40 |
| nkinkade | haha | 20:40 |
| paroneayea | but 2 lines of html with millions of combinations and tons of edge cases | 20:40 |
| nkinkade | millions of combinations? | 20:40 |
| nkinkade | We have like 50 jurisdictions, 6 licenses and perhaps 3 versions. | 20:41 |
| paroneayea | and thousands of RDF files! ;D | 20:41 |
| nkinkade | haha | 20:41 |
| paroneayea | what can I say man, it doesn't look like a complex system ever, any time I look at it from a toplevel perspective. But it's hard to get into the guts of it and see how it could be much simpler | 20:42 |
| nkinkade | I swear, a MySQL database could contain all the same information with about 3 tables, and a total size of couple kilobytes. | 20:42 |
| nkinkade | I could probably create that database in a number of hours ... the just write 200 lines script that would generate all the RDF files on demand. :-) | 20:43 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: and then we'll end up back in pre-sanity madness :\ | 20:44 |
| paroneayea | xml files to generate rdf to generate sites | 20:44 |
| paroneayea | but yeah | 20:44 |
| nkinkade | The site would be generated directly from the database, in fractions of a second. | 20:44 |
| paroneayea | most of the "size" of those xml files come from: | 20:44 |
| nkinkade | And the RDF only on demand, if any crazy person should actually want the RDF. ;-) | 20:45 |
| paroneayea | - translations of titles stored in the RDF | 20:45 |
| nkinkade | But again, this is all in my fantasy world. | 20:45 |
| paroneayea | believe me, my fantasy world also involves a lot less RDF :) | 20:45 |
| paroneayea | but doesn't have really a clear alternative | 20:46 |
| nkinkade | "Progress today can be defined as man’s ability to complicate simplicity." | 20:46 |
| nkinkade | Thor Heyerdahl said that back in the 30s or 40s. | 20:46 |
| nkinkade | .... and believe every word of it. | 20:46 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: let's replace cc.org with a bunch of hand-edited html files and a couple of CGI files | 20:47 |
| nkinkade | From his book Fatu Hiva. | 20:47 |
| paroneayea | written in bash. | 20:47 |
| nkinkade | http://donewith.info/notes/19 | 20:47 |
| paroneayea | haha | 20:48 |
| paroneayea | great quote | 20:48 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: well, we could just replace our XML-RDF files JSON-RDF! http://n2.talis.com/wiki/RDF_JSON_Specification | 20:51 |
| paroneayea | at least those are queryable without a real RDF parser | 20:51 |
| paroneayea | not much better I guess than RDF-XML | 20:51 |
| paroneayea | "everything sucks, everything is too complicated", conversation over | 20:52 |
| nkinkade | Seriously. | 20:53 |
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| CC_Hudson | Project cc.engine build (103): STILL FAILING in 1 min 36 sec: http://code.creativecommons.org/hudson/job/cc.engine/103/ | 21:27 |
| CC_Hudson | Christopher Allan Webber: somehow target_lang was overwritten by ZPT and I don't know how, so | 21:27 |
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| mralex | JED3: how goes zapport merging? | 21:34 |
| JED3 | mralex: pretty good | 21:35 |
| JED3 | zupport is up an running with all the lastest | 21:35 |
| CC_Hudson | Project cc.engine build (104): STILL FAILING in 1 min 46 sec: http://code.creativecommons.org/hudson/job/cc.engine/104/ | 21:37 |
| CC_Hudson | * Christopher Allan Webber: license.title should be license.title(target_lang) | 21:37 |
| CC_Hudson | * Christopher Allan Webber: somehow target_lang was overwritten by ZPT and I don't know how, so | 21:37 |
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| CC_Hudson | Project cc.engine build (105): STILL FAILING in 1 min 53 sec: http://code.creativecommons.org/hudson/job/cc.engine/105/ | 21:53 |
| CC_Hudson | Christopher Allan Webber: Accidentally killed the second half of the send_license_info_email in refactoring | 21:53 |
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| paroneayea | beep | 21:54 |
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| JED3 | mralex: yeah, merging was pretty straightforward, albeit very cumbersome | 22:24 |
| mralex | ah | 22:24 |
| JED3 | mralex: hows that infographic coming along? | 22:25 |
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| akozak | For some reason I find it surprising that Jena was developed by HP | 22:53 |
| akozak | Hah, apparently so did they: "HPLabs management have decided not to continue with an active programme of Semantic Web research at HPL." | 22:54 |
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