Tuesday, 2010-08-10

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jwagenerhey everyone, i'm looking for a nice example where cc rel tags are used for multiple objects in one page. is this actually possible and used?08:00
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nyerglerpaulproteus: ping15:03
paulproteusnyergler: pong!15:03
paulproteusWe talk in 30 min, right?15:03
nyerglerpresumably since you didn't reply to my email :)15:03
nyerglerjust double checking that was still the plan15:03
paulproteusYes (-:15:04
paulproteusOh, now I see it... pardon me.15:04
paulproteusIf you want, I can do 15 past, rather than 30 past15:04
nyerglerpaulproteus: no need to be pardoned, it was a late request (and no response == previous plan)15:09
nyerglerif you can do quarter past, that'd be great, if not, no worries15:09
paulproteusLet's do half past; tty then15:10
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paulproteusnyergler: I'll ring the office?15:30
nyerglerpaulproteus: actually please ring my cell15:30
nyergleri'm @ home this morning15:30
paulproteusnyergler: http://piratepad.net/F3pDrLemz415:32
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akozaknkinkade, i just saw your note re: 1.16 on the cc wiki17:22
akozakany plans to install the usability initiative stuff? vector, wikieditor, etc17:23
akozakIMO 1.16 would be a great opportunity to re-think the skin17:23
akozakhelp us better organize the header17:23
nkinkadeakozak: I have no idea.  I don't follow MW that much.  I just saw that 1.16 was out and was planning to install it.17:23
akozakah ok.17:23
akozakI guess in my mind 1.16 = usability initiative but IIRC the release itself doesn't make many cosmetic changes17:24
akozakso we can revisit17:24
nkinkadeakozak: Sure.  If you know of some features that 1.16 brings along that we can take advantage of, then by all means bring them up and we can implement them as necessary.17:26
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luisvhonest, non-rhetorical question: given the anti-DRM language in the CC licenses, and that ipad/iphone apps are considered (by apple) to be wrapped in anti-circumvention (key-signing) technologies, how does this work: http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/2288219:13
luisvis there a mismatch in the definition between apple's technologies and the license's language?19:15
luisvsomething else?19:15
nyerglerluisv, no idea; iirc the anti-drm clause relates to allowing additional use under the license, maybe the app lets you link out to the webpage with the photo?19:16
nyerglers/additional use/reuse/19:17
luisvnyergler: what originally caught my eye was the reference in the post to "updating and enhancing the browsing experience for the web"19:28
luisvwhen as all good children know close iphone app != web19:28
luisv"You may not impose any effective technological measures on the Work that restrict the ability of a recipient of the Work from You to exercise the rights granted to that recipient under the terms of the License."19:29
* luisv ponders how that works19:30
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nyerglerluisv, yeah, <sarcasm>so happy that we blogged about an iphone app</sarcasm>19:33
luisvyeah, I'm sure mlinksva is even more thrilled ;)19:37
* luisv wonders if he can borrow an ipad from someone to experiment with the application19:43
luisvso, here's a question19:44
luisvis that clause a complete null op, as long as the attribution contains a valid link to the original source image?19:45
luisvrather, to the original source materials?19:45
nyerglerhrm, interesting19:45
luisvsince the DRM in question will not (effectively) have prohibited the recipient from exercising the rights granted under the license?19:46
nyergleryeah, hadn't thought of it, but seems like an interesting (possibly correct) argument19:46
* luisv finds an ipad to test with, will report back19:50
luisvalso, seriously, I don't even think the app complies with the more basic attribution requirements20:02
luisvthat said, holy shit is this a gorgeous way to look at photos20:03
nyerglerluisv, the attribution issue sounds quite problematic20:04
luisvI'll need to re-read the licenses, yet again20:06
luisvyou'd think I'd have the exact attribution requirements burned into my brain by now20:07
greg-gluisv: my non-lawyer but play one by day opinion is that you are correct with the null op thought (since proper attribution makes the drm non-effective)20:07
greg-gluisv: its only a paragraph long sentence with 6 sub-points in it </sarcasm> ;)20:08
luisvnyergler: so, here is an interesting question20:09
luisvin practice, people using flickr for pictures do not seem to "specify" a URI to be associated with the work (as required by 4.b.iii of CC-BY-unported)20:11
nyergler(also, i'm expecting a call, so may go afk at any moment)20:11
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nyerglerluisv, true, widely observed20:12
luisvright, so...20:12
luisvfotopedia does not provide the URI of the flickr photo20:12
luisvjust a link to the photographer's flickr page20:12
greg-gwhich is also a common way of doing flickr CC-licensed photo attribution20:13
luisvI assume that this is technically compliant, since flickr users have not 'specified' a URI?20:13
nyerglerluisv, i assume the same20:15
luisvyeah, that 'URI specified by the author' language quite sucks20:22
luisvthey don't specify what the license is, just (cc) <author name>20:22
luisvthen link to the author's page20:22
luisvso they are probably technically violating there20:23
luisv(their webpage does include full license information, but it is a real PITA to get from the ipad app to the fotopedia websites)20:23
nyerglerluisv, for some reason i thought the license required specifying the work URL as well20:23
nyerglermaybe not...20:23
luisv(iii) to the extent reasonably practicable, the URI, if any, that Licensor specifies to be associated with the Work, unless such URI does not refer to the copyright notice or licensing information for the Work;20:24
luisvI think that is what both of us were thinking of20:24
luisvbut if no URI is 'specified' then all you need is author + title + license URI20:24
luisvthey actually only do author20:24
luisvno title, no license URI20:24
luisvso it is a problem20:24
greg-gdo we need a CC-compliance team? ;)20:25
luisvgreg-g: maybe just a 'cc-compliance before blurbing it on the cc blog'-team? :)20:25
nyerglerluisv, that'd be a huge improvement :)20:26
* luisv wonders what the intent of the 'specified' language was20:29
luisvrather, I understand why you'd want someone to be able to specify a URI20:33
luisvbut don't understand why you wouldn't want it to explicitly default to the URI it is already at if it is at a URI20:39
greg-gno kidding20:40
JED3flickr, at one point in time, included metadata for cc:attributionURL that pointed to the photographer's page. in that case, attributing to the uri of the photographer's profile would be technically correct20:55
luisvreally? huh, did not know that20:55
JED3that seems to have changed with their new design20:55
luisvwhat do the default cc tools stuff into cc:attributionURL?20:55
JED3luisv: we dont stuff anything unless its explicitly given (for the chooser)20:56
JED3yeah see here's an example: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4hIQ882121cJ:www.flickr.com/photos/doigoid/3897264246/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us20:56
JED3rel="dc:creator cc:attributionURL" to my flickr homepage20:57
luisvhuh, interesting20:57
luisvand now they just drop cc:attributionURL,or...?20:57
JED3yeah, its absent now for some reason20:58
JED3i think it was a relatively newer addition made just prior to their recent massive design changes20:59
JED3and i dont think it was an option available in a user's settings, they just defaulted to include that triple when a cc license was involved21:01
luisvI'm afraid they are in a bit of turmoil internally; some burnout and people leaving for greener pastures (one of their engineering bigshots just went to etsy, for example)21:03
nyerglerwell remember, they don't branch their code, which lets them, ahem, innovate ;)21:04
JED3nyergler: "feature switches" ftw21:04
nyerglerluisv, http://code.flickr.com/blog/2009/12/02/flipping-out/21:04
* luisv sends email about that21:07
luisvthat makes this tweet make even more sense: http://twitter.com/kellan/status/2075542979521:11
JED3nyergler: http://zapport.creativecommons.org/r/lookup/?uri=http://flickr.com21:12
luisvhttp://www.paulhammond.org/2010/06/trunk/ <- apparently a better explanation of 'no branches'?21:24
nyerglerpaulproteus, ping21:47
paulproteusnyergler: pong21:47
nyerglerpaulproteus, actually, going to go to #discovered21:47
nkinkadenyergler: So moving stats to backup may require some modifications to the code.  Apparently BeautifulSoup 3.1 uses HTMLParser instead of SGMLParser, and it's my understanding that the former is more strict about parsing bad HTML, so now B.S. chokes on the Flickr page.21:58
nkinkadeThe options are to rewrite that part of the code, or else to try to install an older version of B.S. that still uses the SGMLParser21:58
nkinkadeI don't like the idea of going backward with software versions.21:59
nyerglernkinkade, what version of BS are we using currently?22:03
nkinkadenyergler: On a6 it's something like 3.0.722:03
nkinkadeOn backup it's 3.122:03
nkinkadeSome people on that thread seem to be advocating lxml instead of B.S.22:03
nyerglernkinkade, i see; to be honest my instinct is to stick with the 3.0.x series at the moment... we're probably going to need to twiddle that code in the near future anyway as they roll out UI changes22:05
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nyerglernkinkade, is that code in source control? would love to see where it's barfing if you have a traceback handy you can pastebin22:06
nyergler(just curious)22:06
nkinkadeThe output is pretty explicit, and I can see where B.S. is breaking down on the Flickr page.22:06
nkinkadeHTMLParser.HTMLParseError: malformed start tag, at line 22, column 157022:07
nkinkadenyergler: That's the error.22:07
nyerglerso is that code in source control? :)22:08
nkinkadeYou can look at http://flickr.com/creativecommons to see what it's referring to ... some HTML stuffed into a variable in a <script> tag in the <head>22:08
nyerglernkinkade, well assuming we're talking about the code in http://code.creativecommons.org/viewsvn/stats/flickr/nightly_import_scrape.py?revision=12509&view=markup22:08
nyerglerlooks pretty easy to convert to lxml22:09
nkinkadenyergler: That's right.22:09
nkinkadenyergler: If you can do it quickly, then by all means give it a shot.  I gave it a quick shot, but then lxml started spitting our Unicode errors.22:10
* luisv finds it hard to believe that anything libxml-based is forgiving of erors22:10
luisvbut then again IANAH22:10
luisvI just have xml-bracket-shaped-scars from a past life22:11
nyerglernkinkade, nobody has bandwidth for it right now, even if it is straight-forward; i suggest sticking with BS 3.0.x, file a ticket for future upgrade to lxml22:12
nkinkadeOkay, I'll see about getting to an older version of BS.22:13
nyerglerit's probably a simple unicode thing (as far as python unicode things go), but august is sort of insane (esp with PDM)22:14
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luisvnyergler: in response to email, flickr-er says "No branches, no tests, no QA, no release cycles"22:30
luisvmy head just broke into more pieces at 'no tests'22:30
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nyerglerthey're not being facetious?22:34
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luisvnyergler: I have asked for details22:37
luisvon the question of branching, I am flipping through the pdf linked to from http://www.paulhammond.org/2010/06/trunk/22:37
luisvand it is quite persuasive on the 'no branching' thing22:37
luisvQA is a sign your engineers don't use your product, so I'm on board with that, more or less22:39
luisvbut no tests is breaking my brain22:39
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