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| jwagener | hey everyone, i'm looking for a nice example where cc rel tags are used for multiple objects in one page. is this actually possible and used? | 08:00 |
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| nyergler | paulproteus: ping | 15:03 |
| paulproteus | nyergler: pong! | 15:03 |
| paulproteus | We talk in 30 min, right? | 15:03 |
| nyergler | presumably since you didn't reply to my email :) | 15:03 |
| nyergler | just double checking that was still the plan | 15:03 |
| paulproteus | Yes (-: | 15:04 |
| paulproteus | Oh, now I see it... pardon me. | 15:04 |
| paulproteus | If you want, I can do 15 past, rather than 30 past | 15:04 |
| nyergler | paulproteus: no need to be pardoned, it was a late request (and no response == previous plan) | 15:09 |
| nyergler | if you can do quarter past, that'd be great, if not, no worries | 15:09 |
| paulproteus | Let's do half past; tty then | 15:10 |
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| paulproteus | nyergler: I'll ring the office? | 15:30 |
| nyergler | paulproteus: actually please ring my cell | 15:30 |
| nyergler | i'm @ home this morning | 15:30 |
| paulproteus | b | 15:30 |
| paulproteus | nyergler: http://piratepad.net/F3pDrLemz4 | 15:32 |
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| akozak | nkinkade, i just saw your note re: 1.16 on the cc wiki | 17:22 |
| akozak | any plans to install the usability initiative stuff? vector, wikieditor, etc | 17:23 |
| akozak | IMO 1.16 would be a great opportunity to re-think the skin | 17:23 |
| akozak | help us better organize the header | 17:23 |
| nkinkade | akozak: I have no idea. I don't follow MW that much. I just saw that 1.16 was out and was planning to install it. | 17:23 |
| akozak | ah ok. | 17:23 |
| akozak | I guess in my mind 1.16 = usability initiative but IIRC the release itself doesn't make many cosmetic changes | 17:24 |
| akozak | so we can revisit | 17:24 |
| nkinkade | akozak: Sure. If you know of some features that 1.16 brings along that we can take advantage of, then by all means bring them up and we can implement them as necessary. | 17:26 |
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| luisv | honest, non-rhetorical question: given the anti-DRM language in the CC licenses, and that ipad/iphone apps are considered (by apple) to be wrapped in anti-circumvention (key-signing) technologies, how does this work: http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/22882 | 19:13 |
| luisv | ? | 19:13 |
| luisv | is there a mismatch in the definition between apple's technologies and the license's language? | 19:15 |
| luisv | something else? | 19:15 |
| nyergler | luisv, no idea; iirc the anti-drm clause relates to allowing additional use under the license, maybe the app lets you link out to the webpage with the photo? | 19:16 |
| nyergler | s/additional use/reuse/ | 19:17 |
| luisv | nyergler: what originally caught my eye was the reference in the post to "updating and enhancing the browsing experience for the web" | 19:28 |
| luisv | when as all good children know close iphone app != web | 19:28 |
| luisv | "You may not impose any effective technological measures on the Work that restrict the ability of a recipient of the Work from You to exercise the rights granted to that recipient under the terms of the License." | 19:29 |
| * luisv ponders how that works | 19:30 | |
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| nyergler | luisv, yeah, <sarcasm>so happy that we blogged about an iphone app</sarcasm> | 19:33 |
| luisv | yeah, I'm sure mlinksva is even more thrilled ;) | 19:37 |
| nyergler | heh | 19:43 |
| * luisv wonders if he can borrow an ipad from someone to experiment with the application | 19:43 | |
| luisv | so, here's a question | 19:44 |
| luisv | is that clause a complete null op, as long as the attribution contains a valid link to the original source image? | 19:45 |
| luisv | rather, to the original source materials? | 19:45 |
| nyergler | hrm, interesting | 19:45 |
| luisv | since the DRM in question will not (effectively) have prohibited the recipient from exercising the rights granted under the license? | 19:46 |
| nyergler | yeah, hadn't thought of it, but seems like an interesting (possibly correct) argument | 19:46 |
| * luisv finds an ipad to test with, will report back | 19:50 | |
| luisv | also, seriously, I don't even think the app complies with the more basic attribution requirements | 20:02 |
| luisv | that said, holy shit is this a gorgeous way to look at photos | 20:03 |
| nyergler | luisv, the attribution issue sounds quite problematic | 20:04 |
| luisv | I'll need to re-read the licenses, yet again | 20:06 |
| luisv | you'd think I'd have the exact attribution requirements burned into my brain by now | 20:07 |
| nyergler | :) | 20:07 |
| greg-g | luisv: my non-lawyer but play one by day opinion is that you are correct with the null op thought (since proper attribution makes the drm non-effective) | 20:07 |
| greg-g | luisv: its only a paragraph long sentence with 6 sub-points in it </sarcasm> ;) | 20:08 |
| luisv | nyergler: so, here is an interesting question | 20:09 |
| nyergler | shoot | 20:11 |
| luisv | in practice, people using flickr for pictures do not seem to "specify" a URI to be associated with the work (as required by 4.b.iii of CC-BY-unported) | 20:11 |
| nyergler | (also, i'm expecting a call, so may go afk at any moment) | 20:11 |
| luisv | sure | 20:11 |
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| nyergler | luisv, true, widely observed | 20:12 |
| luisv | right, so... | 20:12 |
| luisv | fotopedia does not provide the URI of the flickr photo | 20:12 |
| luisv | just a link to the photographer's flickr page | 20:12 |
| greg-g | which is also a common way of doing flickr CC-licensed photo attribution | 20:13 |
| luisv | I assume that this is technically compliant, since flickr users have not 'specified' a URI? | 20:13 |
| nyergler | luisv, i assume the same | 20:15 |
| luisv | oy. | 20:15 |
| luisv | yeah, that 'URI specified by the author' language quite sucks | 20:22 |
| luisv | they don't specify what the license is, just (cc) <author name> | 20:22 |
| luisv | then link to the author's page | 20:22 |
| luisv | so they are probably technically violating there | 20:23 |
| luisv | (their webpage does include full license information, but it is a real PITA to get from the ipad app to the fotopedia websites) | 20:23 |
| nyergler | luisv, for some reason i thought the license required specifying the work URL as well | 20:23 |
| nyergler | maybe not... | 20:23 |
| luisv | (iii) to the extent reasonably practicable, the URI, if any, that Licensor specifies to be associated with the Work, unless such URI does not refer to the copyright notice or licensing information for the Work; | 20:24 |
| luisv | I think that is what both of us were thinking of | 20:24 |
| nyergler | ah | 20:24 |
| luisv | but if no URI is 'specified' then all you need is author + title + license URI | 20:24 |
| luisv | they actually only do author | 20:24 |
| luisv | no title, no license URI | 20:24 |
| luisv | so it is a problem | 20:24 |
| greg-g | do we need a CC-compliance team? ;) | 20:25 |
| luisv | greg-g: maybe just a 'cc-compliance before blurbing it on the cc blog'-team? :) | 20:25 |
| nyergler | luisv, that'd be a huge improvement :) | 20:26 |
| * luisv wonders what the intent of the 'specified' language was | 20:29 | |
| luisv | rather, I understand why you'd want someone to be able to specify a URI | 20:33 |
| luisv | but don't understand why you wouldn't want it to explicitly default to the URI it is already at if it is at a URI | 20:39 |
| greg-g | no kidding | 20:40 |
| JED3 | flickr, at one point in time, included metadata for cc:attributionURL that pointed to the photographer's page. in that case, attributing to the uri of the photographer's profile would be technically correct | 20:55 |
| luisv | really? huh, did not know that | 20:55 |
| JED3 | that seems to have changed with their new design | 20:55 |
| luisv | what do the default cc tools stuff into cc:attributionURL? | 20:55 |
| JED3 | luisv: we dont stuff anything unless its explicitly given (for the chooser) | 20:56 |
| luisv | ah | 20:56 |
| JED3 | yeah see here's an example: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4hIQ882121cJ:www.flickr.com/photos/doigoid/3897264246/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us | 20:56 |
| JED3 | rel="dc:creator cc:attributionURL" to my flickr homepage | 20:57 |
| luisv | huh, interesting | 20:57 |
| luisv | and now they just drop cc:attributionURL,or...? | 20:57 |
| JED3 | yeah, its absent now for some reason | 20:58 |
| JED3 | i think it was a relatively newer addition made just prior to their recent massive design changes | 20:59 |
| JED3 | and i dont think it was an option available in a user's settings, they just defaulted to include that triple when a cc license was involved | 21:01 |
| luisv | <nod> | 21:03 |
| luisv | I'm afraid they are in a bit of turmoil internally; some burnout and people leaving for greener pastures (one of their engineering bigshots just went to etsy, for example) | 21:03 |
| nyergler | well remember, they don't branch their code, which lets them, ahem, innovate ;) | 21:04 |
| luisv | ? | 21:04 |
| JED3 | nyergler: "feature switches" ftw | 21:04 |
| nyergler | luisv, http://code.flickr.com/blog/2009/12/02/flipping-out/ | 21:04 |
| luisv | wow. | 21:07 |
| * luisv sends email about that | 21:07 | |
| nyergler | lol | 21:08 |
| luisv | that makes this tweet make even more sense: http://twitter.com/kellan/status/20755429795 | 21:11 |
| nyergler | lol | 21:12 |
| JED3 | nyergler: http://zapport.creativecommons.org/r/lookup/?uri=http://flickr.com | 21:12 |
| luisv | http://www.paulhammond.org/2010/06/trunk/ <- apparently a better explanation of 'no branches'? | 21:24 |
| nyergler | paulproteus, ping | 21:47 |
| paulproteus | nyergler: pong | 21:47 |
| nyergler | paulproteus, actually, going to go to #discovered | 21:47 |
| nkinkade | nyergler: So moving stats to backup may require some modifications to the code. Apparently BeautifulSoup 3.1 uses HTMLParser instead of SGMLParser, and it's my understanding that the former is more strict about parsing bad HTML, so now B.S. chokes on the Flickr page. | 21:58 |
| nkinkade | The options are to rewrite that part of the code, or else to try to install an older version of B.S. that still uses the SGMLParser | 21:58 |
| nkinkade | I don't like the idea of going backward with software versions. | 21:59 |
| nyergler | nkinkade, what version of BS are we using currently? | 22:03 |
| nkinkade | nyergler: On a6 it's something like 3.0.7 | 22:03 |
| nkinkade | On backup it's 3.1 | 22:03 |
| nyergler | ah | 22:03 |
| nkinkade | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/601166/issues-with-beautifulsoup-parsing | 22:03 |
| nkinkade | Some people on that thread seem to be advocating lxml instead of B.S. | 22:03 |
| nyergler | nkinkade, i see; to be honest my instinct is to stick with the 3.0.x series at the moment... we're probably going to need to twiddle that code in the near future anyway as they roll out UI changes | 22:05 |
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| nyergler | nkinkade, is that code in source control? would love to see where it's barfing if you have a traceback handy you can pastebin | 22:06 |
| nyergler | (just curious) | 22:06 |
| nkinkade | The output is pretty explicit, and I can see where B.S. is breaking down on the Flickr page. | 22:06 |
| nkinkade | HTMLParser.HTMLParseError: malformed start tag, at line 22, column 1570 | 22:07 |
| nkinkade | nyergler: That's the error. | 22:07 |
| nyergler | ah | 22:07 |
| nyergler | so is that code in source control? :) | 22:08 |
| nkinkade | You can look at http://flickr.com/creativecommons to see what it's referring to ... some HTML stuffed into a variable in a <script> tag in the <head> | 22:08 |
| nyergler | nkinkade, well assuming we're talking about the code in http://code.creativecommons.org/viewsvn/stats/flickr/nightly_import_scrape.py?revision=12509&view=markup | 22:08 |
| nyergler | looks pretty easy to convert to lxml | 22:09 |
| nkinkade | nyergler: That's right. | 22:09 |
| nkinkade | nyergler: If you can do it quickly, then by all means give it a shot. I gave it a quick shot, but then lxml started spitting our Unicode errors. | 22:10 |
| * luisv finds it hard to believe that anything libxml-based is forgiving of erors | 22:10 | |
| luisv | but then again IANAH | 22:10 |
| luisv | I just have xml-bracket-shaped-scars from a past life | 22:11 |
| nyergler | nkinkade, nobody has bandwidth for it right now, even if it is straight-forward; i suggest sticking with BS 3.0.x, file a ticket for future upgrade to lxml | 22:12 |
| nkinkade | :-) | 22:13 |
| nkinkade | Okay, I'll see about getting to an older version of BS. | 22:13 |
| nyergler | great | 22:13 |
| nyergler | it's probably a simple unicode thing (as far as python unicode things go), but august is sort of insane (esp with PDM) | 22:14 |
| nyergler | thanks | 22:14 |
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| luisv | nyergler: in response to email, flickr-er says "No branches, no tests, no QA, no release cycles" | 22:30 |
| luisv | my head just broke into more pieces at 'no tests' | 22:30 |
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| nyergler | lol | 22:34 |
| nyergler | they're not being facetious? | 22:34 |
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| luisv | nyergler: I have asked for details | 22:37 |
| luisv | on the question of branching, I am flipping through the pdf linked to from http://www.paulhammond.org/2010/06/trunk/ | 22:37 |
| luisv | and it is quite persuasive on the 'no branching' thing | 22:37 |
| luisv | QA is a sign your engineers don't use your product, so I'm on board with that, more or less | 22:39 |
| luisv | but no tests is breaking my brain | 22:39 |
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