Tuesday, 2010-03-30

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erlehmannhello there03:07
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d00bhi nathany, any update for mentor on "openoffice plugin for ontology extraction"15:13
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paroneayeankinkade: ping16:29
nkinkadeparoneayea: Hi.16:29
paroneayeaoh.  I was just going to ask you if you knew where I would go to add new strings to pootle16:30
paroneayeabut I found it :P16:30
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nkinkadeparoneayea: Did you find this bit of documentation too: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Translating_with_Pootle/Administration16:50
nkinkadeAre you asking regard to Polley's email?16:52
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paroneayeankinkade: yes and yes16:56
paroneayeahe is right, there is no cc0 title string at the moment16:56
paroneayea(er, [s]he)16:57
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greg-gok, I'm going to hate myself for asking this, but I feel like I have to... Does anyone know of a reasonable argument FOR the use of the NC clause?18:57
luisvit is the obvious one18:58
luisvhelps artists commercialize18:58
greg-ghow about for a nonprofit/academic institution?18:59
paroneayeamy main argument "for" NC isn't an "anyone I know should use it" argument19:00
mralexschools are very particular about having their assets sold19:00
* greg-g is looking at this and doesn't see a good argument to use: http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses/NC19:00
paroneayeait's more a "helps shift the balance of copyright toward something more sharing oriented / permissive for those who can't really embrace FaiF ideas"19:00
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greg-gparoneayea: hmmm19:00
paroneayeabut that's not really a reason to use it19:00
paroneayeait's a reason for it to exist19:00
greg-gmralex: sometimes. lets pretend this entity isn't too gungho about selling its content19:01
paroneayeado you have to give a good reason to use it then?19:01
paroneayeaseems like a good opportunity to say, don't use this because these licenses are better19:02
greg-g"have to" is strong. I thought I would present pros and cons19:02
paroneayea"wikipedia compatibility" is the #1 con19:02
paroneayeathat people grokk19:02
paroneayeaer, wikipedia incompatibility19:02
* greg-g nods19:03
robmyersgreg-g Well in the UK the BBC isn't meant to compete with commercial interests, so NC might look like a good way of doing that (it's not, but mumblemumblegrumble ;-) )19:04
greg-grobmyers: good point19:04
paroneayeasometimes I can't believe how much work it takes me to remember something I said, did or programmed19:08
paroneayeaand that's with my life copiously annotated in orgmode these days19:09
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robmyersthat's what blogs are for. well, what my blog is for. it's an outboard memory ;-)19:09
paroneayeaI only update my blog every couple of months it seems19:11
paroneayeaalthough I update my microblog on identi.ca maybe a bit *too* often even19:11
paroneayeathat's not the same thing though, I don't say "I wrote this function that generates the i18n string for this license blah blah"19:12
robmyersI sometimes google a question and find myself answering it some time ago... ;-)19:12
paroneayeaanyway, speaking of that...19:12
paroneayeanathany_: you around?19:12
paroneayeaoh you're probably at lunch.19:13
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paroneayeaquestion answered!19:13
paroneayea(question of "are you around" that is, not my real question)19:14
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paroneayeanathany: ping20:07
paroneayeanathany: nm20:11
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greg-gluisv: really, I'm not seeing those prices. I'm seeing 6 bedroom/2.5 bath places for $100,00021:03
luisvright, and lots of people aren't seeing those prices in detroit either; they're literally giving away shit there21:04
luisvthe experiment I want to run is not 'live cheap, attract smart college students', it is 'live dirt cheap, attract dirty hippies' ;)21:05
greg-gwell, yeah. But weighing the benefits of A) having a good university job in A2, B) the U-M attracting good people to steal and C) I feel better about planting a garden in A2 than detroit based on soil tests, I went with A2 :)21:05
greg-gdont' know if I have the gumption for that21:06
luisvoh, I probably don't either21:06
luisvbut if I wanted to half-ass it I'd choose durham, with better weather and smarter students ;)21:06
* luisv runs21:06
luisv(I'm also regularly tempted by costa rica)21:07
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* luisv wonders if he could get enough outside counsel work to settle in rural NC, farm, and homeschool a kid21:18
JED3luisv: where in NC? i grew up in rural NC21:19
luisvJED3: dunno, somewhere within (say) an hour's drive of durham, probably21:19
luisvto get at least some occasional slice of culture21:19
luisv<- duke alum, married to a duke alum, big brother of a duke frosh21:20
JED3luisv: ohh okay, yeah i lived about 30-40 min away from Durham21:20
JED3<-- alum of NCSU21:20
luisvI have lots of NCSU alum friends, through red hat21:20
luisvand NCSSM, through same21:20
JED3ohh cool, yeah I have a few close friends who I graduated with that joined the ranks there as well21:21
luisvit is a good place to work21:21
JED3luisv: Durham has really changed, for the much better that is21:21
luisvyeah, I really like durham, and raleigh is getting to be a pretty nice place to be too21:22
JED3they're both trying to catch up with Chapel hill21:22
luisvdunno, I never really grokked chapel hill21:22
luisvseemed like it would be fun to go to college in but not necessarily live as an adult in?21:23
JED3luisv: idk, i tend to think the opposite, at least imagining living in the rural edges of chapel hill, maybe in Hillsborough or Pittsboro21:24
luisvyeah, obviously lots of people love it21:24
JED3I would have despised going to college there though heh21:25
luisvand I have never lived there, though I have visited very good friends who lived in hillsborough (and ended up moving back to durham ;)21:25
luisvwell, I mean, Carolina sucks21:25
luisvit seems we can agree on that21:25
luisvbut it did have better nightclubs than durham ;)21:25
JED3and great music venues21:26
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nkinkadeluisv: If you start up that farm let me know, though Costa Rica would be vastly higher on my list than the plains of North Carolina.21:50
luisvI'll add you to the list21:51
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ward_what does "attribution" mean? http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/deed.en21:55
ward_( Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 2.0 Generic )21:55
ward_this is the license of a flickr foto i want to use to draw a portrait in photoshop21:56
ward_also: Attribution — You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work).21:56
ward_i deidnt really find anything specified by the author :s21:56
mralexthen use the author's name21:57
ward_yeah of course i was going to link back to the original pic21:57
ward_but i'm wondering if this is allowed or not.... (drawing portrait that has the same composition)21:57
robmyersa link back is good as well21:58
ward_i only have A FLICKR USERNAME ANYWAY SO21:58
ward_sorry capslock..21:58
robmyersit's a share-alike licence, so you can draw it or collage it as long as you place your new work under the same license ("share and share alike")21:58
ward_yeah thats no prob :)21:59
ward_i just want to use the drawing as an example of what i can do21:59
ward_portfolio stuff21:59
tantekdefault for attribution is link to the page of the original work with licensing information21:59
* tantek just read through the CC licensing docs recently regarding this very issue.21:59
tantekso e.g. when re-using a Flickr photo, link it to the Flickr page for that photo.22:00
tantekand providing that link is sufficient to satisfy default attribution22:00
ward_yeah :)22:00
ward_the confusing part was the definition of attribution22:00
tantekalso satisfies Flickr's TOS regarding embedding <img> tags with src= something on their server22:00
tantekyeah - was definitely a challenge to decode that22:01
tantekbtw - anybody here interested in reviewing some brainstorming for microformats for licensing specific items/embeds on pages?22:01
tantekfyi: http://microformats.org/wiki/item-license22:02
ward_i didn't know about this place btw :) google told me about it22:04
ward_(i use freenode frequently for other chqns)22:04
ward_any good links for CC licensed photographs you guys know of? (if thats not too offtopic)22:04
luisvflickr is really the place to go22:05
luisvthough google image search now has cc licensed content as well22:06
ward_yeah i noticed that also a while ago22:06
luisvtantek: I think CC is firmly in bed with the rdfa crowd ;)22:06
luisvtantek: though I'm curious myself22:06
* luisv sees linksvayer's name on the proposal, does a double-take22:07
nkinkadeward_: Wikimedia Commons is another great place to go for CC-licensed images.22:10
ward_nkinkade: thanx i'll bookmark it for the future :)22:11
nkinkadeAlso, it's questionable whether simply linking to a work fulfills the attribution requirement.22:11
nkinkadeI'm sure it's debatable, as is everything regarding CC, but in my view linking may not be enough to the letter of the license.22:12
luisvlicense says name/title of work, no?22:12
nkinkadeI wrote up an FAQ on giving good/proper attribution: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FFAQ#How_do_I_properly_attribute_a_Creative_Commons_licensed_work.3F22:12
ward_nkinkade: aaaaaaaaaah, attribution is just "giving credit"?22:13
nkinkadeluisv: Right, and also the author's name, or screen name, or pseudonym, etc.22:13
ward_it must be my bad english then lol22:13
nkinkadeward_: Exactly.22:13
ward_nkinkade: i thought it was like "add something to the original work"22:14
nkinkadeI don't think the licenses state that you *must* link anywhere, but it's nice form if you can.22:14
ward_nkinkade: your page is much more clear though :) thanx for writing it down22:14
ward_yeah of course, i'm vey gratefull to peopel ho use cc licenses22:15
nkinkadeward_: It's not my page, it's part of CC's FAQ.  It just so happens that I was the one who wrote that particular FAQ. :-)22:15
ward_especially if their work is REALLY professional22:15
ward_nkinkade: lol whatever, thanx for writing it then :p22:15
ward_if i came across it i would nto even have came to ask here :)22:16
nkinkadeward_: Are you not in the habit of reading FAQs when you have questions? ;-)22:18
ward_nkinkade: i figured the page i linked was the only thing :)22:18
nkinkade[Via] => 1.1 proxy.google.com:80 (squid)22:19
nkinkadeInteresting that Google seems to be using Squid.22:19
ward_i read sometime they use a lot of python code22:22
nkinkadeI don't know.  I just think of Squid as old, somewhat inefficient, and a beast to configure.22:22
nkinkadeThat's just how I think of it, though it may be wrong.22:23
ward_ah ok, no experience with it, i dunno22:23
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ward_thanx for the clarification guys22:29
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ward_gotta go, if i remember i'll come back to pass a link to the result when its finished :)22:29
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tantekward_ check out http://compfight.com/ for quick/easy searching of CC licensed Flickr photos22:34
tanteknkinkade - I based my comments re: attribution above on reading the license itself (cc-by-3.0) rather than the FAQ22:36
nkinkadetantek: The FAQ is based on the licenses themselves.22:36
tantekand had the good fortune of doing so in the company of mlinksvayer who helped walk me through it.22:36
tantekthus the conclusion that the the default preferred method is linking to a page with licensing information on it for the work in question22:36
nkinkadetantek: Where in the license is it indicated that simply linking somewhere with no visual text is suitable attribution?22:37
nkinkadeLinking is always nice to do, but I don't think it's necessary.22:37
tanteklike many things, it doesn't specifically list all the things you can avoid having to do - it's not reasonable to expect a listing of all such things22:37
tantekit's merely, *if* you link, what you *should* link to22:38
nkinkadetantek: Like I say, the FAQ entry is based on what the license says, not what one can infer from it.22:38
tantekif no specific attribution request/requirement is made22:38
tantekso is my response/answer above22:38
nkinkadeWhere in the license does it say anything about needing to link somewhere?22:38
nkinkadeI don't mean providing a URL, but linking.22:39
nkinkade(two different things)22:39
tantekI didn't say *need*22:39
tantekyou're inserting that straw requirement22:39
tantekhere is the citation22:40
tantek4. b (iii)22:40
tantek"(iii) to the extent reasonably practicable, the URI, if any, that Licensor specifies to be associated with the Work, unless such URI does not refer to the copyright notice or licensing information for the Work"22:40
nkinkadeRight: "unless such URI does not refer to the copyright notice or licensing information for the Work"22:41
tantekso basically, it's saying, the link *should* be to a something that *does* refer to the copyright notice or licensing information for the work22:41
tanteksilly double-negatives22:41
nkinkadeIt doesn't say anything about a link, but providing a URI.22:41
luisvI think you guys are violently agreeing ;)22:41
tanteknkinkade - yes a link is one way of providing a URI :)22:41
tantekyou may of course provide the URI in other ways22:42
nkinkadeMy only objection was to tantek's statement above that said that "providing that link is sufficient to satisfy default attribution"22:42
nkinkadeI wasn't making a legal argument by challenging that statement, only saying that I don't really agree.22:43
nkinkadeAt the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.22:43
nkinkadeAttribution is rarely ever carried out as the license specifies, but just about nobody cares, which is the way it should be.22:43
tantekusing the specific example of Flickr22:44
tanteka link to a photo page on Flickr contains the copyright notice + licensing information22:44
tantekit also contains (in the URI) the pseudonym of the content author22:45
tantekthat leaves the title of the work (ii), which can arguably be retrieved from the link itself22:46
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nkinkadetantek: that may be true, but it doesn't give any apparent notification where the work itself is actually being resused.22:46
tantekergo - default attribution satisfied per 4. b of http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/legalcode22:46
nkinkadeAnd that an image is a hyperlink somewhere else is rarely apparently, so the author goes unattributed unless the user actually clicks the image.22:47
tantekanyway - that was the mutual conclusion mlinksvayer and I came to when re-reading this recently - and that helped drive some design aspects of the item-license proposal http://microformats.org/wiki/item-license22:47
nkinkade*apparent (sorry for the spelling errors)22:47
nkinkadeWell, then in that case, I mostly disagree with Mike.22:48
tantekI think on the web, as long as the info is easily accessible (e.g. once click of a link), the expectations are satisfied (of providing author name/pseudonym etc.)22:48
nkinkadeWhat Mike thinks is just an informed opinion ... as is what I think.  But like I say, what any of us opine about it doesn't mean anything.22:48
tantekwe're all just sharing varying degrees of informed opinion :)22:49
nkinkadeWe could go back and forth here for a long time.  Just link if you feel that's enough.22:49
tantekI'm perfectly fine to submit that mine may be less informed than yours :)22:49
tantekjust offering what I see as another reasonable point of view22:49
nkinkadetantek: I don't think "proper" attribution really matters to most people who honestly just want to see their work be useful or informative to someone else.22:50
nkinkadeSo all these interpretations are just academic.22:51
JED3tantek: in the case of Flickr, when there is so much other metadata available, why would you reduce to only providing a link for attribution?22:51
nkinkadeI'll leave it to horders and the lawyers to sue one another. :-)22:51
tantekand frankly what I've seen in practice is that people just want *some* form of attribution at least, and on the Web, links seem to carry quite a bit of currency there (thanks Google)22:51
tantekJED3 because by following the link you can go get all the rest of the metadata22:51
tantekthat's sort of a fundamental web architecture thing right? no need to duplicate everything everywhere when you can simply hyperlink to it.22:52
tantekanyway - yes - from a format perspective, I've certainly seen people requesting that their name be listed, or their name+company etc. including a link22:54
tantekand all that drove the design of the "attribution" property for item-license: http://microformats.org/wiki/item-license#attribution_details22:54
JED3tantek: yes, but for flickr, cc:attributionName is present22:55
tantekto provide those options for authors/publishers to explicitly say - here's how I want to be attributed22:55
tantekJED3, and Flickr puts authors' pseudonym's into their photo URLs, thus the link contains the name.22:56
JED3tantek: okay then why would you neglect cc:attributionURL?22:57
JED3ehh i guess that could be derived from the photo uri as well in flickr's case22:57
tantekthat's the photo itself isn't it?22:57
JED3no, on flickr it would be the photostream for that user i believe22:58
tantekah but that's where 4. b. (iii) needs careful reading (as Mike showed me)22:58
tantek"(iii) to the extent reasonably practicable, the URI, if any, that Licensor specifies to be associated with the Work, unless such URI does not refer to the copyright notice or licensing information for the Work"22:58
tanteka user's photostream URL on Flickr does not refer to the copyright notice or licensing information for the Work22:59
tantektherefore the "unless" clause of 4. b. (iii) is triggered22:59
tantektherefore there is no requirement to provide that (the user photostream) URL in attribution22:59
tantekI know - it is weird22:59
tantekand I had no idea that's how it worked23:00
tantekbut that's the clause Mike showed me, and for that reason23:00
luisvso you're saying you don't have to provide the user's URI23:04
luisvyou're not saying you don't have to provide the URI for the work, right?23:04
luisvjust checking23:05
tantekI'm saying that the license text says that, as I was informed by Mike23:05
tantekluisv: re rdfa - I think the syntax question can be orthogonal.23:05
tantekthe point of item-license is to pick a smaller/simplified vocabulary that works for the 80-90% of real world publishing cases with licensing (and optional attribution) info23:06
tantekyou could use rdfa or class names to publish item-license23:06
tantekmicroformats is mostly about vocabulary, with simply a default suggested syntax that works well with the way web designers author HTML23:07
tantekthere's been a lot of folks from many communities to help make the microformats vocabularies reusable in a number of syntaxes, whether class names, rdfa, or the new microdata proposal spun out of HTML523:08
tantekI think it's good that people are trying out different syntaxes23:08
luisvI've been meaning to follow up on the microdata things23:09
tantekthe real value is on interop on simple vocabularies23:09
JED3nkinkade: i need to add a redirect on support, any clear disadvantage to using a php header in the page's edit in civi vs. adding it creativecommons.conf?23:11
nkinkadeJED3: Why a redirect?23:12
JED3eh, i'll just add it to creativecommons.conf23:12
JED3i need to redirect /join to /donate?utm_source=join23:12
nkinkadeJED3: That's a better bet as it keeps everything in one place, mostly.23:12
nkinkadeYeah, definitely make that in the vhost config.23:13
JED3okay, yeah23:13
tantekanyway - thanks for your time anyone, and I'll try to be around sporadically if anyone has any more input/feedback on http://microformats.org/wiki/item-license23:14
tantekalso, feel free to /join #microformats as well and give feedback there if you'd prefer23:14
JED3nkinkade: https://support.creativecommons.org/join23:16
JED3its gone! horray23:16
nkinkadeI'm glad to see it gone.  Things were confusing before.23:16
JED3i agree23:17
JED3this is a much simpler approach23:17
nkinkadeIs it $75 on /donate? $50 on /join?  $25 on /join?  Why did I just pay $75 on /donate when I could have got the same thing for $25 of /join .... etc.23:17
nkinkade$75, period.23:18
mralexnow people who paid $50 can complain about $75, and that's it ;)23:18
JED3mralex: page looks awesome btw23:20
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tantekyes - very nice looking page23:47
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