Tuesday, 2009-09-29

JED3sorry, not too important, i'll email00:00
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jibotBovinity is brilliant and aware of Basement Cat, and iz not afraid.02:33
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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and madebyparker.com and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern04:46
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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and madebyparker.com and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern05:17
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decibelleHello, I have been over the FAQ, had a brief look at the public wiki and the discussion forum and I couldn't see any information about contributing artwork to the CC logo ...15:04
decibelleI have made a circle with a line through a euro15:04
decibelleI think the existing one doesn't really match the rest of the icons15:04
decibelleI've tested the new one I've made and I think it looks better even really small15:05
paulproteusdecibelle, You shouls peak with mralex when he comes online.15:06
paulproteusOr you can email webmaster at creativecommons.org.15:06
paulproteusshould speak! Not "shouls peak".15:06
decibellethank you paulproteus that's very helpful :)15:06
decibelleOh, one more thing paulproteus, if I email the webmaster, would it be appropriate if I included the svg files in the initial email?15:09
paulproteusSure, or (preferably) provide a link to them.15:09
paulproteusI think the CC consensus is that HTTP is better than email attachments.15:09
paulproteusBut if you'd rather attach, then okay.15:09
decibelleOh, I see, ok, I'll upload them somewhere and include a link15:10
decibellethank you very much :)15:11
paulproteusSure thing!15:11
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decibelleOk, email sent, thank you again...15:49
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jibotjgay is http://www.gnu.org/people/speakers.html#Gay16:14
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JED3nathany: is anyone looking at the stats tracebacks?16:30
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nathanyJED3: I looked enough to know it was going to take some time to tease it apart; there are about five levels of indirection in there16:32
nathanyI was going to look at it but if you want to take a look today that'd be awesome16:32
JED3sure, i'll look over it16:33
nathanyJED3: thanks16:33
nathanyit's probably easiest to just log into that host and "sudo su paulproteus -"16:33
nathanyto inspect what's running now16:33
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jibotakozak is Alex Kozak, Program Assistant at ccLearn and SFC@Berkeley co-founder and a norse god16:45
paroneayeaI wish there was a better tool for inspecting your dependency graph of installed apps and to-be-installed apps16:47
paroneayeaor is there?16:47
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jibotBovinity is brilliant and aware of Basement Cat, and iz not afraid.16:50
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JED3am I the only one in the office with a creeping connection?16:57
nkinkademralex: So how are we going to handle the "source" variable?17:04
nkinkadeHow will the widget work?17:04
mralexnkinkade: we could do similarly to pcpid... have the widget send a var to the donate page, it gets added to the donate urls, and handled automatically17:05
mralexnkinkade: you already set it to a default value right?17:05
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nkinkademralex: Right.  There will be a default value, but if the script is passed a value for &source= it will use that instead.17:07
mralexnkinkade: ok17:07
nkinkadeYeah, I was thinking the widget could use something similar to pcpid.17:07
mralexso it'll just be something like support.cc.org/donate?source=CC%20Donation%20Widget17:07
nkinkadeIt's already handled in my script so is that something that you will/can implement for /donate when the time comes?17:07
nkinkademralex: I chatted with Melissa and she likes the idea of getting specific with "source" where possible.17:08
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mralexnkinkade: yeah. the script doesn't touch any query values in the donation links if it doesn't understand them, so it'll be left alone and sent to paypal as expected.17:08
nkinkadeShe wants "Creative Commons Donation" for now.17:08
nkinkadeThen when the campaign launches "2009 Annual Fundraising Campaign"17:09
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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and madebyparker.com and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern17:21
nkinkademralex: Are we missing anything for launch of one-click?17:45
mralexnkinkade: all good. just let me know when to update /donate and it'll be public.17:46
nkinkademralex: I've got all the necessary code on the live site, so I *think* it's just a matter of changing /donate to work with it.17:47
nkinkademralex: I'm going to run out and grab a sandwich to bring back here.  Do you want to do the cutover in about 30 minutes?17:51
mralexnkinkade: sounds perfect, i have my attention elsewhere right now.17:51
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mecredisJED3: around now if you're game17:59
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JED3mecredis: hey, last night i was going to ask a question re webcitations18:23
mecredisright on18:23
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mecredisask away18:23
JED3well i guess first off, have we settled on a name for this?18:23
JED3nathany touched on this subject in a previous message18:24
mecredisWeb Citation seems a little close to the other project18:24
mecrediswe're already going to be stepping on their toes18:24
mecrediswe might want to avoid namespace collision too18:24
mecredisso I'll think on that18:24
mecredisI actually don't mind that18:25
mecredisit could stand for CommonerCite18:25
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WildHeavenTwigmay I jump in with an unrelated question?18:25
WildHeavenTwigWhat would be the most effective way for me to suggest and advocate for the creation of a new license?18:26
JED3mecredis: can we chat later today, perhaps by phone?18:26
mecredisWildHeavenTwig: Unfortunately it's very unlkely that we'll ever release a new license that competes with our current crop of 618:26
JED3WildHeavenTwig: need it be in private? otherwise please share your ideas18:27
mecredisJED3: I can talk now for about half an hour, but then I have to teach class18:27
WildHeavenTwigoh, I'll gladly share the concept!18:27
WildHeavenTwigimagine a work that you want to have edited by licensed or certified folks, and distributed by the public.18:27
WildHeavenTwigI contemplate a mashup of CC-by-sa and CC-by-nd18:28
JED3mecredis: skype call okay?18:28
mecredissure thing18:28
mecredisonline now18:28
WildHeavenTwigthe license text attached to the work would specify the credential and the certifying body18:28
mecredisWildHeavenTwig: ND would prevent the latter work from being reused?18:28
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WildHeavenTwigimagine a work that's editable by anyone admitted to practice law before the Supreme Court of the United States, with the original and all derivatives distributable (but not necessarily editable) by the general public under the same terms.18:30
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WildHeavenTwigor, similarly, editable by anyone licensed to practice medicine in a certain jurisdiction, and distributable by the public18:30
WildHeavenTwigit's sort of CC+18:31
mecrediswe've generally avoided authorizing classes of users18:31
mecredisin lieu of authorizing classes of uses18:31
mecredisbut I have to jump on a call right now18:31
mecredisI'll be back in a bit18:31
WildHeavenTwigright, but sometimes you want to authorize one use for one set of users and another for everyone.18:31
mecredisclasses of people are harder define, and do not have precedent in the copyright statute18:32
mecredisas opposed to classes of uses18:32
mecrediswhich is how typically licenses are generated18:33
mecrediseven piivate ones18:33
mecredisCC+ might work18:34
mecredisit might also just be useful to say BY-NC-ND and say "contact me if you're a lawyer admitted to practice before the SCOTUS ..."18:34
WildHeavenTwigcan CC+ easily tie the licenses together?18:34
mecredisCC+ doesn't really work that way18:35
WildHeavenTwigthat's what I thought18:35
mecredisit merely signals to end users where an additional license is18:35
mecredisor additional terms18:35
mecredisI guess the class of people who are admitted to practice, etc., is so vanishgly small18:36
WildHeavenTwigI want something that indelibly says, eg, "anyone certified by the Sociocratisch Centrum as a Sociocratic Consultant many edit this work, so long as they distribute it under this license, which also allows the general public to distribute the work without changes."18:36
mecredisthat crafting a public license for that class of people costs more than merely asking them to get in contact18:36
mecredisCC licenses are public licenses18:37
WildHeavenTwigbut it's something that would be useful for many different groups of licensed professionals.18:37
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mecredisright, but each class of licensed professionals would have a slightly different license18:37
mecredisall of which would be incompatible with each other18:37
WildHeavenTwigall the same license.18:38
mecredisdespite being different types of licensed professionals?18:38
WildHeavenTwigthe license says something like, "may be edited by folks certified by the body named in the license text accompanying the work"18:38
mecredisright, which is an effectively different license18:38
mecredisfrom folks of class B18:39
WildHeavenTwigwell, indeed – just because I see that a work is licensed under a CCexpert license doesn't mean I can edit it; my expertise may lie in another realm18:40
mecredishey man18:40
mecredisI wish I could answer your questions more18:40
mecredisbut I gotta take a phone call18:40
mecredishang around the chan18:40
mecredisand someone might be able to pick up where we left off.18:40
WildHeavenTwigcool – thanks.18:40
greg-gWildHeavenTwig: just fyi: CC has made deliberate moves _away_ from defining different classes of people and how they are able to use works. For a good example, see the deprecation of the Developing Nations licenses: http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/752018:43
greg-gWildHeavenTwig: that isn't to say CC would never do that again ("never" is a strong word) but I doubt I'll ever see it.18:43
WildHeavenTwigI see this one differently –18:46
WildHeavenTwigThe Developing Nations license defined the class of people in the license deed.18:46
greg-gWell right, and leaving up that definition to non-lawyers will be confusing as all heck18:47
WildHeavenTwigfunny, I thought the legal chatter was the confusing bit.  :)18:48
greg-gnot when you are tryin got enforce your license, then the legal chatter helps you in court18:48
greg-gtrying to*18:48
WildHeavenTwigindeed.  thus the smiley.  :-)18:48
WildHeavenTwigbut I think that's a concern for the user of the license18:49
greg-gI agree it is an interesting concept, but I fear that all of the details will make it impossible to pull off well.18:49
WildHeavenTwigIf I point to a poorly-managed body as my credentialing authority, that's my own darn fault.18:50
greg-gWildHeavenTwig: right, and in doing so damages the reputation of the entire CC license set (it could be argued)18:50
greg-gI'm just hear to play devils advocate, btw :)18:50
* greg-g also has a head cold18:51
WildHeavenTwigI appreciate the challenge to the concept – it's worthwhile to test the ideas.18:53
WildHeavenTwigI think the "reputation" argument is the strongest one yet, but I'm not sure it holds up.18:54
greg-gI honestly (and personally) think it does pretty well. That is why you see such widespread CC adoption, because big names like flickr have invested their own brand into the CC brand. And anything that makes that brand look bad is bad for everyone else using that brand.18:56
WildHeavenTwigTOR protects journalists, right?18:56
greg-g(I overloaded the word brand in there to mean both CC and flickr and 'other people's brands', sorry)18:56
WildHeavenTwigand we love TOR, right?18:57
greg-gTOR the encrypted network system?18:57
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jibotmlinksva is from Creative Commons and Mike Linksvayer18:57
greg-gsure, in theory18:57
WildHeavenTwignot only does it protect journalists (think China, Iran, etc), it also protects criminals18:57
mlinksvawhat in the world is up with http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Developers ?18:58
greg-gI think that is a bad analogy18:58
WildHeavenTwigso we don't base our evaluation of a brand on who uses it18:58
greg-gmlinksva: ugh, I'll fix18:58
greg-gmlinksva: wait, I have no clue18:58
mlinksvacool, will be interested to see what the fix is18:58
greg-gthis history does not help18:58
mlinksvadoesn't make any sense18:58
greg-gnathany nkinkade see http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Developers18:59
WildHeavenTwigif the local ping-pong association decides they want to publish a thing that's editable only by champion players, as certified by them, they can do so.  If a case gets a high-enough profile that folks notice, it will be because of the crazy back-and-forth at the ping-pong association – and that's the story that the media will focus on.19:00
nathanygreg-g: nkinkade: fixed19:01
greg-gnathany: what was the issue?19:01
nathanymlinksva: fixed19:01
nathanyspammer got to Template:PageColumn19:01
nathanyrolled back, blocked, protecting now19:01
mlinksvaalso got infobox19:01
mlinksvawhich i just rolled back19:01
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greg-ggotcha, thanks19:01
nathanyi'm rolling back his other "contribs" now19:02
WildHeavenTwig(though I suppose there might be a note somewhere that the license used by the ping-pongers was the same as the one used by the AMA, Red Cross, or whomever, for their latest guide to home medicine)19:02
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nkinkademralex: How about a rollout more around 2PM your time?19:10
nkinkadeI've got a walk-through of this condo at 1PM your time ....19:10
mralexcool, that's fine19:10
nkinkadeI'll ping you when I get back from that.19:11
greg-gWildHeavenTwig: sorry, got distracted and I now need to get back to work that is paying me today, but, it'd be cool if you brought up your ideas to the cc-community mailing list: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-community19:24
WildHeavenTwigthanks!  That may be exactly the sort of suggestion for which I was looking.19:25
WildHeavenTwigI'm diving back into my work too.  I'm reachable all over the web as heaventwig.19:26
greg-gWildHeavenTwig: cool, take care19:26
WildHeavenTwigthanks – you too!19:27
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greg-gmralex: why did we specifically point out MIT OCW instead of the wider OER community? (re: your tweet)19:28
mralexgreg-g: mlinksva, cameron, or eric would be better to answer that. but, to me, they are a specific use case, which is what the page was after.19:29
greg-gmralex: good point19:30
greg-gthen why didn't we put Open.Michigan ;)19:30
paroneayeanathany: ping19:36
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mlinksvagreg-g, we can iterate on it if you want to suggest a rewrite of the OCW entry20:11
mlinksvaone reason was the OCWC has an ugly logo20:11
nathanyparoneayea: pong20:11
paroneayeaokay, so I must admit that when it comes to traversal I am still pretty confused20:14
paroneayeaurl dispatching in repoze.bfg is easy enough, and I have that working just fine20:14
paroneayeabut while there's a lot of documentation on how it works here:20:14
paroneayeathere is not much documentation on how to do it20:14
nathanyparoneayea: i'm not sure we need traversal in repoze.bfg20:15
nathanysince we're doing url dispatch20:15
nathanythey're generally orthogonal20:15
nathany(at least in my understanding, which is admittedly incomplete)20:15
paroneayeawell then I guess I spent a bunch of time confused on it then without much need20:15
paroneayeaanyway, yeah, using url dispatch is easy enough20:16
paroneayeaone thing that sucks is that there doesn't seem to be an "append_slash" equivalent20:16
paroneayeaie /licenses/ != /licenses20:16
nathanyare patterns regexs?20:16
nathanyeh, nm, doesn't matter20:16
paroneayeapatterns are like:20:16
nathanyi suppose we can just register a braindead view that redirects so that we're being explicit20:17
nathanyoh, right20:17
greg-gmlinksva: heh, logos are important. I can write a rewrite. Question though: do we have a vested interest in mentioning MIT or not?20:22
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mlinksvagreg-g, MIT should probably be mentioned as where it started, but just a mention along the lines of OCW, started at MIT, now at zillions" or something20:27
mlinksvapart of the point of the page is it should have names people recognize20:27
mlinksvaFAMOUS PPL20:27
mlinksvadoesn't relaly have to use a logo if there's some other image that would be more awesome20:28
mlinksvanote that i deleted a couple sentences about MIT that you don't see and added "The OpenCourseWare concept has now spread to dozens of universities worldwide."20:28
mlinksvaso i agree with your critique :)20:28
mlinksvajust needs to be taken to conclusion20:29
greg-gmlinksva: cool, I'll give you a possible rewrite later20:32
paroneayeanathany: another question: what do you think the best route for this is?20:32
paroneayeashould I be making a branch of cc.engine20:32
paroneayeaor just starting from scratch and pull in files that are useful20:33
paroneayeafrom scratch == git init20:33
paroneayeaI have been assuming and operating on the latter, but I guess now would be a good idea to confirm that :)20:33
nathanyparoneayea: i suppose that's the best way to do it... it'd be nice to have full, complete history, but it's not clear that it'd actually be meaningful20:36
paroneayeayeah I agree20:37
nathanyparoneayea: so... yeah, carry on20:37
paroneayeamaybe the best way is to move the old cc/engine directory over to like20:37
paroneayeaand then git mv over files as we need them20:37
paroneayeathat wasy history is preserved properly?20:37
paroneayeawithout cluttering up development20:38
nathanyparoneayea: actually that's not a bad idea... you could do a one shot git-svn import20:38
paroneayeaI'll do that20:38
nathanyand that'd pull things in w/o the externals, move cc/engine cc/engine_legacy or something like that20:38
nathanyparoneayea: btw, if you haven't set up a repo for this on code yet, please do; you'll need to clone gitosis-admin20:39
nathanysee http://scie.nti.st/2007/11/14/hosting-git-repositories-the-easy-and-secure-way and http://eagain.net/gitweb/?p=gitosis.git;a=blob;f=README.rst;hb=master for docs20:39
nathanyparoneayea: i think you have perms to do that and push back to production (which will create the repo)_20:39
nathanyif not, let me know20:39
paroneayeagitosis is what you're using for git hosting?20:39
nathanyparoneayea: yes... it's what does the user multi-plexing for us20:40
paroneayeaseems like a neat system20:40
paroneayeaso after I get this set up20:52
paroneayeanext step is to work on /licenses/ right?20:53
paulproteusparoneayea, If you want to go totally bonkers, you can git-filter-branch to move that directory over in the history, too....20:58
* paulproteus is a Bad Idea factory20:58
paroneayeaI haven't gotten too many useful commits into the new cc.engine git project,21:00
paroneayeamight as well just start from git-svn clone21:00
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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and madebyparker.com and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern21:05
nathanyparoneayea: yeah, and i figured we'd be doing a little back-of-the-napkin prototyping here in the first couple days that we'd eventually throw away... so starting with the clone sounds good21:21
nathanypaulproteus: shut yo mouth ;)21:21
paulproteusRight, but do the git-svn clone, but before working from th... oops nathany said to stop21:21
nkinkademralex: Ready to attempt a launch of the one-click stuff?21:27
mralexnkinkade: howdy, yep. all fires are out, i'm all set.21:30
nkinkademralex: I think all my pieces are in place.21:31
nkinkadeIf you put your stuff in place, then I make the first test donation.21:31
nkinkadeThe form isn't so so busy that a minute or two of instability is a problem.21:31
mralexnkinkade: script is still located at: /sites/default/modules/civicrm/bin/OneClickDonate.php21:34
nkinkademralex: Yup.21:34
mralexnkinkade: well this is weird. is the popup appaering for you? (support.cc/donate)21:40
nkinkademralex: No.  An no error in the Error Console either.21:40
mralexif thejs was broken, the link would still work.21:41
nkinkade  if (e.type == "submit") {21:43
mralexit oculd be because i was holding back the choose your own part...21:43
mralexoh. fuck me. i ddint copy the actual bloody popup html.21:44
mralexnevermind. it's working now.21:44
nkinkadeI got sent to PayPal, but I didn't get a popup??21:45
mralexwhich button did you press?21:45
nkinkade$75 and $15021:46
nkinkademralex: ^^21:46
nkinkadeMaybe my cache is stale.21:46
nkinkadeLet me clear and try again.21:46
mralexprobably. they both work for me.21:46
nkinkademralex: I just got "jQuery is not defined" in the file oneclick.js21:49
mralexhmm, let me try this on a virgin browser.21:49
nkinkademralex: Must be Firefox 3.5 because it works fine in Epiphany.21:51
mralexnkinkade: a freshly booted copy of google chrome had no issues21:51
nkinkadeYeah, I restarted Firefox 3.5.2 and it seems to work now.21:52
nkinkadeI'm going to try a real donation.21:52
mralexFF 3.0.5 on windows worked fine21:52
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nkinkademralex: One last thing that we need to coordinate is the thing about what arrives to my script URL encoded.22:04
nkinkadeI guess I should just urldecode everyone by default just to be sure.22:04
nkinkadeAlso this changed with the move to the live server ... the group names  are now "CC Newsletter" and "CC Events"22:05
nkinkadeI imagine the JS still passes Newsletter and Events, right?22:05
nkinkadeThat's easy for you change right away, no?22:05
mralexcan do22:05
nkinkademralex: But about thr urlencode thing ^^22:05
mralexi concur you should urldecode by default22:06
nkinkadeDo I just urldecode everything by default?22:06
paroneayeanathany: see conversation in #repoze22:11
paroneayeasounds like there's no clean way of doing http://creativecommons.org/licenses == http://creativecommons.org/licenses/22:12
nathanyparoneayea: there's no way to make a view that *just* matches licenses and redirects to licenses/ ?22:12
nathany(you wouldn't want them to be the same, as a resource should have one and only one canonical URI)22:12
paroneayeanathany: yeah, there's a way to do that22:12
paroneayeaI kind of like the way that django does that automatically22:13
paroneayeaif you put APPEND_SLASH = True in your settings22:13
paroneayeait automatically does that so that if /licenses doesn't resolve to a url, it'll see if /licenses/ does22:13
paroneayeaand if so, redirect to /licenses/22:13
nathanyi see, i didn't realize that22:13
nathanyso what's the problem with repoze? just that there's no way to automate trying that?22:14
nkinkademralex: It looks like the only two possible variables that might need to be decoded are "source" and "groups" ... does that seem right to you?22:14
paroneayeayeah, looks like it22:14
mralexnkinkade: correct22:14
nkinkadeThe rest are just numbers.22:14
paroneayeaI mean, I can set up a ton of directives to do automatic redirection for every case in this22:14
paroneayeabut that seems silly22:14
nkinkademralex: And just to be sure, the JS will send the divided amount when it's a recur donation, right?22:15
mralexnkinkade: yes22:15
nathanyparoneayea: one man's silly is another man's "explicit is better than implicit" ;)22:15
paroneayeacurrently the http://creativecommons.org/licenses does redirect to http://creativecommons.org/licenses/, so obviously we want to keep that functionality22:15
nathanybut i don't think this is worth getting caught up on at the moment22:15
paroneayeayeah, I won't get caught up on it22:16
paroneayeaI liked that feature though.22:16
nathanywe can write a test that fails to remind us we need to fix this and either a) add registrations (it's several, but not a limitless #) or b) write a little piece of WSGI middleware to do this for us22:16
paroneayeayeah, wsgi middleware might be the correct route22:16
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nathanyparoneayea: btw, when you configure the repository on git, please set email = true in the config (see other repository declarations for an example) so commit messages get sent to cc-commits22:17
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nathanyman, ahab is one fucking ugly skin... like we set out to wring any usability out of the wiki22:18
nathanyout of *that* wiki, I mean22:18
nkinkademralex: Have you already changed the group names?22:18
nkinkadeI just want to make sure they are changed before I do a live test.22:19
mralexnkinkade: just changed them on the live site.22:19
nkinkademralex: Sorry, the Newsletter group is "CC Newsletter"  ... no ending S.22:21
mralexnkinkade: CC Events still has an S though?22:21
nkinkademralex: Yeah.22:21
paroneayeanathany: will do22:59
paroneayeaalso, yay for free software development22:59
paroneayeaconversation in #repoze led to:22:59
paroneayea<mcdonc> paroneayea: np... we'll put something in there for this22:59
nathanymcdonc is awesome22:59
paroneayeaseems like a nice fellow22:59
nathanysmart guy22:59
nathany(and gave me commit privileges to repoze.bfg :) )23:00
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greg-gwhoa, fedora allows people to upload CC:BY-ND content as part of their distro: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing (search for BY-ND)23:20
paroneayeadebian no longer packages the gnu manifestio with emacs because they consider it to be nonfree ;p23:21
greg-gwell, if it has invariant sections, it sure is :)23:22
greg-gin my purist view, of course23:22
greg-gI just had a long discussion today (part of work) with a lawyer about 'purity' of Open Educational Resources.23:22
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paulproteusparoneayea, http://jmtd.net/log/archfs_build_dependencies/ re: visualize dependencies23:52
paroneayeapaulproteus: that's awesome23:53
paroneayeathx :)23:53

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