Wednesday, 2009-09-16

akozakhaha yea00:00
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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern01:38
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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern03:49
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pyrak"we may not have our powers, but we're still the power rangers"07:57
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* papyromancer sips his coffee and chuckles.09:49
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jibotmlinksva is from Creative Commons and Mike Linksvayer13:46
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paroneayea <- multi-user video/audio chat in xmpp15:24
paroneayeaI think only telepathy/empathy support it though :)15:24
paroneayeanathany: ping15:27
nathanyparoneayea: pong15:27
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nathanyi'm reading/replying to your email now15:27
paroneayeawasn't too obnoxious I hope15:27
nathanynot yet ;)15:28
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nathanyparoneayea: replied, adding details to the wiki page16:03
paroneayeanathany: great, thx16:03
nathanyparoneayea: I updated the wiki page; I'm going to try and further flesh out answers to the "open questions" while I'm at it16:26
paroneayeanathany: :D16:30
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jibotnaufragio is Gavin Baker and and an alumnus of uf.freeculture.org16:30
paroneayeanathany: I like the color coding16:31
paroneayeagood use of RGB16:31
nathanyparoneayea: this is why i'm not a designer16:31
paroneayeayeah, this does help clarify things a lot16:32
naufragiocan i ask a quick bit of advice?16:33
paulproteusDon't ask to ask, just ask. (-:16:33
naufragioi'm organizing a video contest and want to point to a few sources of CC-licensed video & audio which people can use in their productions16:34
naufragioi have a link to the overall CC content directory on the wiki, but i want to include a handful of examples as well16:34
naufragioe.g. for images try flickr and wikimedia commons16:34
naufragioif you were going to recommend 2-3 sources each for re-usable CC video and audio, what would you recommend?16:35
paroneayeanaufragio: is maybe helpful?16:36
paroneayeahey, not sure who posted this but this link does not work:
paroneayeamecredis: (iirc you often post to @creativecommons?)16:39
naufragioparoneayea: thanks16:39
mecredisyeah, fijust fixed16:39
mecrediswasn't me though paroneayea16:39
naufragiowhat's a good source or 2 for sound fx?16:40
mecredisnaufragio: free sound project?16:40
naufragiomecredis: thanks16:42
naufragiois it possible to search for content with certain licenses/permissions?16:42
paroneayeanaufragio: if you're interested in simple videogame like sound effects, sfxr is really good for generating them easily16:42
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jibotakozak is Alex Kozak, Program Assistant at ccLearn and SFC@Berkeley co-founder and a norse god16:43
mecredisnaufragio: I think it may be exposed via their new API16:43
naufragiosuggestion or 2 for background music?16:44
naufragiojamendo, magnatune...?16:45
mecredisyeah, I think those are your best bets16:46
naufragioare those the best-curated collections of cc music?16:50
mecredisalso free music archive16:51
paulproteusmecredis, FWIW still uses the old, broken bitly link.16:51
mecrediswill fix now16:52
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naufragioer, is there a page somewhere with instructions on how to add a CC license to your video on youtube, blip, vimeo, etc?17:10
naufragiothe license picker links to info for but not others17:10
mecredisnaufragio: check out
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naufragioyoutube still doesn't have an embed tool for general users?17:20
akozakis extracting data from a third party using RDF that much better than scraping a page with python? I mean aside from data accuracy (which maybe is the big draw)17:23
nathanynaufragio: no, it doesn't have a CC license tool for all users yet17:26
nathanyakozak: it seems that data accuracy is sort of the entire point, isn't it?17:26
akozaknathany: yea I suppose so. what about speed though?17:27
paulproteusThe other advantage is it's supposed to Just Work with no new coding work (though I don't know exactly what kind of scraping you're referring to).17:27
nathanypaulproteus: that's an advantage for which?17:27
paulproteusFor RDF!17:27
akozakpaulproteus: I'm thinking of something like navigating a doc tree in beautifulsoup or something17:27
nathanyakozak: speed completely application specific, no way to make a generalization17:27
nathanypaulproteus: just making sure :)17:28
akozaknathany: ah ok :)17:28
akozakpaulproteus: I'm thinking of this because of the new SMW extension17:28
nathanyakozak: if I may be my usual blunt self, if you have the choice between scraping and RDF and you choose scraping17:28
nathanyyou'd better have a good fucking reason17:28
akozakheh yea17:28
* paulproteus vanishes for a bit17:28
nathanylike, the RDF should be completely broken or incomplete17:28
akozakthe new semantic history extension for SMW made me think of openhatch17:28
akozakand how it could also be done by scraping wiki history pages17:29
nathanyakozak: i haven't seen that extension; link?17:29
akozakits new,
akozakyou could imagine aggregating all that data17:30
akozakbut that would have been possible before by scraping pages17:30
paulproteusAnd now, you'd still have to, since most wikis won't enable that extension.17:30
akozakpaulproteus: true :)17:30
paulproteus$ git-mw clone
nathanyakozak: interesting17:31
akozaki'm thinking about using that idea as an excuse to learn more python17:32
akozakor as an incentive17:32
* paulproteus imagines git-mw rebase...17:34
nathanyakozak: mediawiki back by git instead of mysql :)17:38
nathanyparoneayea: are things feeling any clearer to you? i'm going to move all the translation related docs from that page to
nathanythey're slightly orthogonal and i think that'll help us separate the work17:38
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paulproteusnathany, I was thinking like git-svn.17:42
paulproteus"Sure, you can use Subversion^WMediaWiki. I'll act as if nothing's wrong."17:42
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jibotjgay is
paroneayeaback from lunch17:45
paroneayeanathany: yes, it's looking more clear17:46
naufragiocan the "More permissions URL" be an email address?17:46
nathanynaufragio: it should probably be a URL, so that implies (to me) a mailto: prefix if you use an email address17:46
nathanyit's not widely used so it's a little unclear17:47
mralexhmm, this will make nkinkade sad17:50
nkinkadeI don't know if sad is the word.  It's just worrisome.  Toss another egg in the Google basket.17:52
nkinkadeOne day this is going to come back to bite people.  It won't affect me to any great extent because I don't rely on Google for anything, except as it related to CC.17:53
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nathanyparoneayea: I updated both wiki pages now to contain more information.  I'm going to look at something else for a while, please email/ping if you have more questions17:58
paroneayeanathany: will do, thx17:58
nkinkadeGuess I better contact the folks over at UnifiedRoot.18:01
mlinksvankinkade: you could just set up your own "unifiedroot"18:02
nkinkadeBut then I wouldn't have the backing of an established and credible organization and network like UnifiedRoot would offer me. ;-)18:03
akozakAnother egg in the established and credible organization basket :)18:10
naufragiothanks for your help, everybody!18:12
paroneayeanathany: is there any way to check the md5sums of the videos once they're uploaded?18:13
paroneayeabecause I *think* they all uploaded okay18:14
nathanyparoneayea: not really; i'll go ahead and check the item in and we'll see if it breaks :)18:15
paroneayeaoki :)18:16
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JED3paulproteus: hehe18:36
JED3ran across a random comment of yours18:36
paulproteusAww, that's from junior year of college.18:37
paulproteusOf course, now I realize PINE (and IMAP) all have label support.18:37
paulproteusBut major (-:18:37
paulproteus(-8 even18:37
JED3i'm going back to my pine roots18:38
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paulproteus points out I maintain a relevant Debian package.18:54
akozakaww you shouldve linked to your openhatch profile18:55
paulproteusGood point, but not yet (-:18:56
paulproteusTurns out when you configure mod_wsgi to serve up to 15 processes and you don't really have RAM for so many processes, it's Bad News.18:57
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akozakso many interesting SMW extensions in one day18:59
akozakby that I mean 218:59
akozakpaulproteus: openhatch bug filed19:05
akozaknoticed it when I went to your profile page re: earlier :)19:06
paulproteusYou rule (-:19:06
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paulproteusakozak, That is one *awesome* bug.19:19
paulproteusAlso feel free to join #openhatch19:19
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mecredisdo you mind if I reply to your Consulting email to cc-staff?19:45
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akozakmecredis: i suppose not19:47
mecredisits no big thing19:47
mecredisI just htink you asked some really good questions19:48
akozaki just kinda vomited that out though, not much thought or structure to it :P19:48
mecredisah ok19:48
mecredisno worries19:48
akozakno but feel free to send it out19:48
mecredisthanks dude19:49
akozakfwiw i think private consulting companies in this "industry" are inevitable19:50
mecredisLike ahrash said19:51
mecredisometimes $$ is cheaper than mental effort fro some people19:51
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Lennie_Hi, folks, I noticed that this channel exists because of the Mozilla Service Week.19:55
mecredisLennie_: Great! How can we help you?19:56
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jibotthomg is Thom Hastings and and awesome!19:56
Lennie_mecredis: well, do you know the stock-photo site ?19:56
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mecredisLennie_: I don't.19:56
Lennie_mecredis: do you know what stock-photo's are ?19:57
Lennie_mecredis: well, a lot of people put their photo's on that site, mostly amateurs19:57
mecredisgot it19:58
Lennie_mecredis: just as a hobby, their photo's get used and they can tell their friends19:58
mecredissounds like a flickr scenario19:58
Lennie_mecredis: when their is a foto's in the paper, I took that picture19:58
Lennie_mecredis: yes, kinda like flickr, but in this case pictures are actually used by others19:59
Lennie_mecredis: build up on19:59
mecredisI'm pretty sure plenty of Flickr photos get reused by others19:59
mecredisbut I understan19:59
Lennie_mecredis: well, scx is a site with a milion visitors a day or something like that order20:00
mecredisgot it20:00
Lennie_mecredis: and there is money needed to run the site and recently the site got bought by the bully company in the industry: getty images20:01
mecredisi see20:01
Lennie_mecredis: they run a lot of for-pay sites20:01
mecredisyeah, I'm aware of who Getty is20:01
Lennie_mecredis: so now when you search the site you'll see for-pay photo's first.20:01
mecredisuh huh20:02
Lennie_mecredis: anyway, some people want to start their own site ofcourse20:02
mecredisgot it20:02
Lennie_mecredis: and we've been thinking maybe we need to start an organisation that can support such a site20:02
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Lennie_mecredis: a non-profit20:02
mecredisSounds cool20:03
Lennie_mecredis: I'm one of the people who actually doesn't create photo's, but I do webdev20:03
mecrediscool, I'm a photog too20:03
Lennie_mecredis: we've been thinking, where do we start ? other then to start and build a site. :-)20:04
akozakthat's a good place to start :)20:04
Lennie_mecredis: we guessed people should be able to make a choice for licences20:04
mecredisthat sounds good20:05
mecredisthere are two ways cc can be involved, then20:05
Lennie_mecredis: cc is definitly something we've thought about it, possible some if not all that you can choose20:05
mecredisone is for you to check out our Web Integration guide here20:06
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mecredisanother is to check out our consulting services here:
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Lennie_mecredis: will check out the pages20:06
Lennie_mecredis: as their are a number of people involved in different countries, where should we establish our organisation ?20:08
Lennie_mecredis: and what org. form ?20:08
mecrediswell CC licenses just help with the copyright status of the works involved20:08
mecredisits up to you to decide what structure of your organization will be most effective20:08
mecredisa non-profit migth work20:08
mecredisbut there's no reason a for-profit can't use CC20:09
Lennie_mecredis: yes, I understand, but I guess you folks deal with legal stuff 'all the time' so possible you have some ideas about what not to do20:09
Lennie_mecredis: some pointers, maybe some people that can advice us ?20:10
Lennie_mecredis: (i'll first gonna read more about consulting on the webpage now. :-)20:10
mecrediswhile we do wrangle with a lot of legal questions, we can't, unfortunately, offer legal advice as a lawyer or firm would20:10
Lennie_mecredis: I guess that's also sound advice :-)20:11
mecrediserr, :)20:11
mecredisI think the questions CC can most help with20:11
mecredisare ones that deal directly with copyright, communities, and content generation online20:12
mecredistake, for example, Wikipedia's use of our CC BY SA license20:12
mecredisthey use that as their terms of service, effectively20:13
mecredisthe idea is that you need to agree that your work on Wikipedia will be available under that (and only that) license20:13
Lennie_mecredis: do you have advice on what cc license(s) we should offer for such a site/content ?20:13
mecredisIt really depends on your ultimate means20:13
mecredisand goals20:13
mecrediserr, ends20:13
Lennie_mecredis: well these images are used to create other works, they could be for commercial use as well20:14
mecredisthe first three licenses on that page offer the ability to commercially reuse a work20:15
Lennie_mecredis: do you know of any other license that might of interrest to us ?20:18
Lennie_mecredis: non-cc I mean20:18
mecrediswell there are very few other public licenses20:18
mecredisthat work in the same fashion as CC20:18
mecredisand this sounds weird for us to say, but its probably better that way20:18
mecredislicense proliferation is a problem.20:18
mecredisif there are too many independent licenses then there are siloed communities of content20:19
Lennie_mecredis: yes I totally agree, it's like if you create a software library with a GPL-license, instead of a LGPL-license, it would will actually prevent reuse instead of promote it20:20
mecredisright, the ole GPL vs. permissive licenses20:20
mecredisso aside from the FDL20:20
mecrediswhich is what Wikipedia used to use instead of CC BY SA20:21
mecredisthe only other license of note is the Free Art License20:21
mecredisbut I haven't heard of anyone really using it recently20:21
Lennie_mecredis: and their is public domain I guess ?20:23
mecredisthe PD is not a license20:23
mecredisit is a status of a work20:23
mecredisyou can waive all your rights using CC020:23
mecredisand then the work will be effectively in the public domain20:23
mecredisor the work can be in the public domain for other reasons (copyright expired over time, it was never entitled to copyright in the first place, etc.)20:24
Lennie_mecredis: do we need to have people in different countries choose different cc-licenses ? or atleast the text in their own language ?20:24
mecredisLennie_: we make a JS widget that helps render our license choices in multiple languages20:25
mecredisthe licenses, however, are designed to be compatible with different ported versions20:25
mecredisso that a person can remix a work from china, despite the fact that is was CC licensed in Brazil, etc.20:25
Lennie_mecredis: I know a little about open source licenses, I use open source software and I was wondering where is the difference ?20:27
mecrediswhat is the difference between an open source license and open source software?20:28
mecredisnot sure I understand what you're asking20:28
Lennie_mecredis: does the law say it's a different thing and thus you need a different license or does it just not apply ?20:28
mecrediswhat is a different thing?20:28
Lennie_mecredis: are these works similair by the law to say software works20:28
mecrediswhich works?20:28
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Lennie_mecredis: do photo's need to be dealt with in the same manner as software, license wise ?20:29
mecredisboth are works entitled to the same amount of copyright protection under the law20:29
Lennie_mecredis: I've come to understand books are quiet similair to software license wise20:30
greg-gyes, open source licenses are not really written for creative works (they are written for source code) while CC licenses are written for creative works (and not source code). So there is a source code / media dichotomy20:30
Lennie_greg-g: ok, thanks for the answer20:30
greg-g"creative works" being short hand for anything not-software (I need a better term)20:30
mecredisbut yes, as greg-g says, you shouldn't use CC licenses for open source software and vice versa20:30
Lennie_an other question, do you folks also answer these kinds of questions outside of the mozilla service week ? judging by your consulting page, you do20:32
akozakLennie_: We have mailing lists and a good number of us are usually on IRC, although working at the same time...20:33
mecredisLennie_: the idea with the consulting page is to hire CC as a consultant on a particular project for an hourly rate20:33
greg-gLennie_: many of us also hang out in this IRC channel every workday (and some weekends), so we're always around20:33
mecrediswe also offer an FAQ here:
akozakmailing lists are here:
mecredisand a general info question page here:
Lennie_I think that's pretty clear for now20:34
nathanynkinkade: JED3: paroneayea: tech call on conf line?20:34
Lennie_as we've only started the project very recently :-)20:34
nkinkadenathany: Sure.20:34
paroneayeanathany: yep20:36
akozaknow that's what I call service (week)20:36
Lennie_I was actually just going over my list of questions as my webdev-partner is not here, I'll let you know when I have any other questions. :-)20:37
Lennie_thank you for all your answers20:37
mecredisplease do20:37
Lennie_mecredis: what about, if we want to add terms to a license (we should definitly not call it a cc-license I'm sure)20:42
Lennie_and what do you folks think of this license ?:
mecredisLennie_: not only that, but it won't be compatible with any other CC licensed works out there20:43
mecrediswhich is now numbering in 250million20:43
mecredisso Wikipedia won't be able to import the photos, etc.20:43
mecredisLennie_: I'm not realistically going to be able to look atyour license right now20:44
Lennie_mecredis: yes I understand, but I don't think that's the intent of the site anyway, but I'm not trying to get an idea of how these things fit together. :-) possible better to ask stupid questions then to assume20:44
mecredisyeah, I suppose it depends onw hat your intent with the site is20:44
mecredisif you're interested in siloing your work20:44
mecredisand making sure it can't be reused by other people using CC licensed in parent works20:44
mecredisthen making up your own license is a good idea20:45
akozakLennie_: custom licenses tend to confuse users about their rights.20:46
Lennie_mecredis: the point is a bit I've not seen a cc-license which has a 'ask the author permission to use this photo'-clause, which seems to be one of the important parts of the site20:46
mecredisLennie_: then I would question whether you even need a public license20:46
akozakLennie_: The point of CC licenses is to specify rights so that people don't need to ask permission.20:46
mecredisif you want people to to always ask permission20:46
mecredisthen there's no need to have a public license, since all works are All Rights Reserved by default under copyright law20:47
Lennie_akozak: I totally agree on the part of confusion20:47
Lennie_mecredis: yeah, I guess that makes sence too :-)20:47
mecredisLennie_: this is one of our first videos:
mecredisand it explains why CC licenses are good at reducing transaction costs20:49
mecrediswhich, I'm assuming, you're interested in doing20:49
mecredisasking permission, however, is a pretty serious transaction cost20:49
Lennie_mecredis: actually I think the license says you should, but a lot of times it doesn't actually happen20:50
mecrediswhich license?20:50
Lennie_mecredis: the one of the current site20:50
mecredisah, I see20:51
mecredisso yeah, its up to you to decide if its a worthwhile clause int he first place20:51
Lennie_mecredis: I think people just like to know when a photo is used and what for :-)20:51
mecredisthere's no reason you can't request it20:51
mecredisI just don't think its a good idea to require it20:51
Lennie_we'll be sure to add a: donate some money to the author and/or the site as well. :-)20:52
mecredissounds good to me20:52
Lennie_asking doesn't cost a thing. :-)20:53
Lennie_any thoughts on how to best do small international payments ?20:53
mecredisprecisely, and by using a CC license, you get the added benefit of compatibility with other works20:53
Lennie_I know of paypal, but I don't know what their cut is20:55
mecredisamazon payments and google checkout are also worth investgating20:55
mecredispaypal can be between 1-%20:55
mecrediserr, 1-5%, if I understand it correctly20:55
Lennie_sounds like a lot. :-)20:57
mecredisyeah, but investing in your own transaction system can be very expensive20:57
Lennie_the overhead is probably worse I'm guessing, with international boundries and all20:58
mecredisyeah, its a tough call20:58
paroneayeamagnatune had to recently cut out its non-paypal support because spammers were buying songs from them for small sums to test credit cards21:00
paroneayeaso even if you develop a decent working system, it can still really suck21:00
paroneayeawhich also means their rhythmbox and banshee plugins stopped working21:00
paroneayeasad :(21:00
mecredist a bummer21:01
paulproteusTopical for #cc21:02
paulproteusthat's for sure.21:02
akozakto me the solution would be to only sell credit in larger chunks21:02
akozak10$, 20$, etc21:02
paroneayeapaulproteus: speaking of which, how's your buddy cardingangels doing? ;p21:04
paulproteusSo many carders come by, I can never remember which is which.21:04
* mecredis wonders what happened to ole cardingangels21:04
mecredisthat was the more insane instance21:04
mecrediswhen (s)he was pasting in #s and names21:05
paulproteusOh, right, that was amazing.21:05
mecredissurreal and and insane21:05
paulproteusDude, it's the Internet, and this is #cc.21:05
paulproteusThat reminds me, I need to get a new drop box address. (-;21:05
nkinkadenathany: What do you think about me just configuring varnish to pass requests for most common media extensions?21:11
nkinkadeI can't imagine we'll get much benefit from trying to cache media files that are 3M+21:11
nathanynkinkade: i'm fine trying that21:11
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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern21:58
Lennie_well, I should go, thank you for your advice folks, have a nice night/day !21:58
akozakok good luck Lennie_21:59
Lennie_thank you21:59
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akozakwow mwlib looks pretty cool22:05
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paroneayeasorry about that, restarted and forgot to restart my irc client.22:13
akozaki think we should use teamspace for all document creation, use mwlib to parse it into latex, and then just write some neat latex templates to wrap around it22:15
akozakmralex what do you think about setting that up :P22:15
akozakwould never need to worry about footnote numbering again!22:16
ianwelleri got about 30 emails called "Registration Link for the Creative Commons Network" after i renewed last night.22:18
ianweller(and by 30 i mean, like, seven)22:18
akozakhaha JED3 ^^22:18
ianwelleri tried two of them and they both worked. that sounds like a problem i should report ;)22:18
JED3hi ianweller, yes I was waiting for your reply, last night you were one of two victims of a bug that I accidently released yesterday afternoon22:20
ianwellerJED3: lol :)22:20
ianwellerlucky me ;)22:20
ianwellerJED3: since i just renewed a second one to test and it worked what would you like to do22:20
JED3hehe, yep, we must like you alot to send you 30 emails lol22:20
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* ianweller tries to separate the CC Network emails from the pingdom emails. my internet was awry last night22:21
ianwellerJED3: yeah the final count is 7 ;)22:21
ianwellerJED3: i'm also assuming you didn't charge me seven times either22:22
JED3no we certainly did not22:23
ianwellerpaypal agrees with that statement22:23
ianwellerJED3: but it's taken care of so that's lovely.22:23
ianwellerJED3: you can undo the second 1-year renewal that i got if you want, i'm not going to whine22:24
JED3haha, that is okay22:25
JED3the second year of renewal is on the house ;)22:25
JED3sorry for the confusion22:25
ianwellerit's all good22:25
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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern22:35
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nkinkadenathany: Do you happen to know how one can view videos they have submitted to
nkinkadeI feel lame that I can't find it.22:56
nathanynkinkade: you mean everything you've contributed?22:56
nkinkadeYeah, that would work.22:56
nathanyif you log in i think there's a "contributions" link in the nav header22:56
nkinkadeI just found it.22:57
nkinkadeThanks.  Sorry for the noise.22:57
nkinkadeI *was* being lame.22:57
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nkinkadenathany: Did you perhaps upload the 2008 techsummit video to under your own account?23:14
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nkinkademralex: Do you know by chance where the original video file for the June 2008 tech summits is?23:22
nkinkadeSo far I can only find the YouTube video.23:22
mralexit's not on
mralexoh, the summit at google23:22
mralexthat's probably the only video, since they recorded it23:23
mralexit was up at at decent quality before23:23
nkinkademralex: Ah, that explains it.  Thanks.23:24
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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern23:42
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