Tuesday, 2009-09-08

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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and madebyparker.com and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern00:02
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greg-gI wish mlinksva was here right now so I could share with him this url: http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/2642/228701:50
greg-gnot for the content, but for the url01:50
paulproteusgreg-g, others: http://www.asheesh.org/note/debian/not-a-food-truck.html02:01
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greg-gpaulproteus: I love that idea, subscribed alright :)02:02
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pyrakwhere is autonomo.us hosted?04:35
pyrakit's lagging like crazy right now04:35
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jibotJoiIto is blogging at http://joi.ito.com/ and the CEO of Creative Commons04:52
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twbThe textbook at http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ is licensed under the CC (by-nc, 3.0).07:49
twbThis means I can *distribute* PDFized versions, right?07:50
twbAs long as I do so gratis07:50
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jibotrobmyers is Rob Myers and going to talk about freedom. Ignore him.08:22
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TanguyI have seen several concerns about licencing an opinion essay with a free licence, because someone would then be able to distort the author's sayings.09:19
TanguyDoes that make any sense? Is it actually just legal to cite someone's modified text without mentionning the fact it has been modified?09:24
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jibotJoiIto is blogging at http://joi.ito.com/ and the CEO of Creative Commons09:28
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remaximThe CC seems to be known for a lot of innovative and creative licenses that help to deal with a lot of real situations...14:22
remaximthe thing I am wondering about is if it is possible to suggest a new type of license14:23
remaximas every license is an immense amount of work I am wondering if it is possible and if yes, where to suggest14:23
greg-gremaxim: We are always open to suggestions and there will likely be a version 4.0 of the licenses where we take outside input14:26
remaximoh, great! I be right back to tell you my suggestion14:26
greg-gsounds good, but it might easily get lost in the ether of IRC, I would suggest writing an email via this page: http://creativecommons.org/contact (or to the email list under the "License Development and Versioning List" section)14:28
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remaximI am back14:37
remaximgreg-g, the problem and the idea are quite fuzzy and it might help me to discuss it with someone from the CC first. Could you help me with that?14:38
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greg-gremaxim: I could, but email might be better for me today as I'm trying to catch up with work stuff :)14:44
greg-gBut of course, there are other people here too, so lay it out there and we'll respond when/if we can :)14:44
remaximgreg-g, I am not sure if it is even your area of licenses, so I ll try it here first. thanks14:45
remaximI ve tried to be a music composer for open source games for a while and had quite some problems with the licenses that in the end pushed me away from this hobby14:46
remaximgreg-g, known issue?14:47
remaximI mean, is it a known issue?14:47
greg-gwell, you haven't shared any specifics yet, so not sure :)14:48
remaximok... continuing14:48
greg-gbut, in general, kinda. The compatibility issues with CC licenses and Free/Libre Open Source Software14:48
remaximyeah, true ...14:48
greg-g(which basically means just use either CC:BY or CC:BY-SA, avoid the -NC and -ND options)14:49
remaximOn the one hand I ve tried to ensure that my work couldn't be used for commercial games (as I invested much work and time into it), while on the other hand I couldn't use the NC tag, as because of debian-legal and similar organisations project leader didn't take nc media14:49
remaximI think this issue is known for quite some time14:50
greg-git is, and I think the solution is to use BY/BY-SA for creative works you want to include in FLOSS stuff14:51
remaximthat's where it get tricky now... and as I am no lawyer, it might not be correct as well14:51
greg-gwe even adapted our licenses to address some concerns from the Debian-legal team: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Version_3#Debian14:52
remaximyeah, I know... that is what stopped me from doing that14:52
remaximI ve heard of that... very nice from you14:52
greg-gwhat might not be correct?14:52
remaxim"my" idea14:52
greg-gwhich is? :)14:52
remaximsome time ago I heard of an idea that you could make a license for GPL games or general open source games14:53
remaximit ensures that the media is usuable under the terms of GPL as long as shipped with an GPL game14:53
greg-g"make a license"?14:53
remaximcreate a new license14:54
greg-gI would personally suggest not creating yet another license14:54
* greg-g waves14:55
remaximif the media is not shipped with the game, it should be under CC-by-nc-sa or something like that14:55
remaximgreg-g, usually I would agree with you 100% as there are way too many licenses already14:56
remaximbut for this one I can't find any other solution14:56
greg-gremaxim: but that doesn't stop someone from getting the game and extract the music and reditribute the music as BY-SA by itself14:56
remaximgreg-g, why?14:56
greg-gthere is no easy NonCommercial-only-for-certain-use-cases solution14:56
greg-gbecause someone _can_ do that under the terms of BY-SA14:57
paroneayeawhich is a feature :)14:57
greg-gotherwise it wouldn't be considered an Open/Free license by debian14:57
greg-gexactly! :)14:57
remaximgreg-g, I don't get it yet14:57
paroneayearemaxim: in other words, debian wants the ability for users to remix and redistribute content in the same way that they want that for code14:58
paroneayeaif you want it in debian, you're going to have to give users that level of freedom14:58
remaximtrue... I know14:58
remaximI ve heard (but am not sure if it is true) that the original idea for this license is made by richard stallman and eben moglen ...14:59
greg-gwhich license?14:59
greg-gand define "original idea"14:59
remaximgreg-g, without the CC part15:00
greg-g"the CC part"?15:00
remaximthat media can be distributed as long as it is with gpl15:00
remaxim"if the media is not shipped with the game, it should be under CC-by-nc-sa or something like that" is not from them15:00
greg-gnor from us15:00
remaximit's from me ... I just wrote it ;)15:01
remaximthe thing that makes me believe in it is that richard stallman doesn't believe in GPL as a media license nor whole games under GPL licenses15:01
greg-gso, here is the legal (IANAL but I like to read) implications of that: you are essentially dual licensing the content as BY-NC-SA and BY-SA which means people can choose which one they want to use no matter what. There isn't much to stop them.15:02
paroneayeain other words, the NC restriction doesn't apply15:02
remaximtrue, it doesn't apply15:03
paroneayeabecause BY-SA doesn't apply to "only under these conditions"15:03
paroneayeaer, not under your additional restrictions15:03
remaximgreg-g, you mean my idea...15:03
greg-gremaxim: yes.15:03
remaximmaybe you re right... as I am no lawyer15:03
paroneayearemaxim: if you say something is under BY-SA, it is under BY-SA regardless of whether it is distributed with the game or not15:04
paroneayeathat's one of the features of the license :)15:04
remaximparoneayea, it doesn't have to be by-sa ... just a new license15:04
paroneayearemaxim: pushing through a new license is almost certainly completely unnecessary, a waste of your time and licensing committees, and will almost certainly also mean your package will be rejected15:05
paroneayeause an existing debian approved license :)15:05
remaximparoneayea, I won't use annother license, just not contributing anymore... as I am doing already15:06
remaximI think the big problem is that there are lots of artists not contributing to free games as they are being afraid of people using their work for free for their commercial games and work15:07
greg-gremaxim: so you just don't want to contribute to a Free game project because you want your contribution to be licensed under a -NC license and they (debian et. al) won't accept that?15:07
remaximI might got a wrong view, but I don't think I am wrong with this ... I know I think like that15:07
remaximgreg-g, true15:07
greg-gI understand the concern, but that is kinda the point of big F Free(dom)15:08
paroneayearemaxim: game art is usually almost always so specializd that it's terribly unlikely that someone will manage to use it outside of one specific game anyway15:08
remaximparoneayea, absolutely not true ... just take a look at the exploiding flash game industry15:09
paroneayeaand if it's under cc-by-sa they can't make a sucker out of you, because they'll also have to share a like if they make modifications or add to the artwork15:09
paroneayea(share alike, not share "a like")15:09
greg-gparoneayea: never heard that phrase before, I like it :)15:10
remaximparoneayea, 99% don't add anything just add other songs that may be not CC15:10
remaximgreg-g, back to your concern15:10
remaximcode is hard to seperate or to use by itsown and they have very strict rules about linking in the gpl15:11
remaximyou can't just take special fragments of code and use it in your code15:11
greg-gyes, I'm familiar with the GPL15:12
paroneayearemaxim: cc-by-sa is designed to do the same as well as can be done in terms of media15:12
paroneayeaI'm assuming your concern is whether or not to contribute artwork to the postapocolyptic rpg game then?15:12
paroneayeasince you're in that channel15:12
remaximparoneayea, nope, that is for coding/experimenting purposes15:12
paroneayeawell anyway, I think this situation is simple, can be summarized in a couple of points15:13
remaximparoneayea, there were LOTS of games I already wanted to contribute but didn't do it15:13
remaximparoneayea, let me finish first15:13
remaximgreg-g, on the other hand commercial games can take my songs without changing anything in their game except the credits, and use it or just pieces of it (I don't consider parts of songs a good contribution in sense of share alike)15:14
remaximbasically exploiting free work... at least I feel like that15:14
greg-gnot if you license it BY-SA15:15
paroneayearemaxim: well a) that hasn't happened with the extrordinarily good music of Wesnoth and etc.15:15
paroneayeab) BY-SA protects that as well as can be done for media15:15
paroneayeac) any additional restrictions WON'T be considered free within free and open source software distributions15:15
remaximgreg-g, SA means that the song is share alike not the whole game or game music?15:15
remaximor did I get something wrong?15:16
paroneayearemaxim: It would probably be with all media content15:16
greg-gsee the FAQ: "Under Creative Commons’ core licenses, syncing music in timed-relation with a moving image is also considered to be a derivative work."15:17
remaximgreg-g, so the whole game has to be CC?15:17
remaximI ll read it and probably will ask some more questions, thanks15:18
paroneayearemaxim: it's reasonable to assume that the media would have to be under the same license or a compatible (more permissive non-copyleft, presumably CC-BY) license15:18
greg-gnot necessarily, the term "derivative" is not a very easy thing for lawyers to define (mainly because they don't want to :) )15:18
paroneayeaso yes15:18
remaximgreg-g, that seems very complicated...15:19
greg-gcopyright law is, unfortunately, that is why CC is trying to make things better/easier/clearer15:20
remaximI just read that syncing with a movie is a derivate work, but it might get complicated with code15:20
remaximas not the code is the derivate work but the output of the code15:20
* remaxim is scratching his head15:21
remaximis my concern reasonable? I don't really feel like this is a clear thing, meaning that it might be very hard to pursue it legally15:22
paroneayearemaxim: chances are it wouldn't even come down to a legal challenge.15:22
greg-gfood for thought: screenshots of games are copyrighted and the copyright is held by the game producer, even if the screenshot was taken by someone else. Because that screen is a "derivative" of the code.15:23
paroneayeaif a proprietary game company discovered that remixing their game content with yours would mean they'd have to release their stuff under a free software license either15:23
paroneayeaa) most likely, they'd be scared away15:23
paroneayeab) there's some chance they'd contribute back then15:23
greg-gI think your concern over NC is reasonable, but must be seen from the standpoint of the rest of the Free/Open community, a community that has very important ethos that everyone shares, and if those ethos aren't shared by yourself, then unfortunately contributing is not easy.15:24
remaximparoneayea, good chances, but it isn't legally pursueable and creators of the game probably won't be aware of it15:24
remaximso no protection there15:24
remaximgreg-g, strange thing is that I actually share it in matter of code but not media15:25
paroneayeathese problems are probably both bigger than you're worrying about them and certainly will apply in any license circumstance ever15:25
remaximI release code under gpl and my music under CC ... as bythemselves I feel secure15:25
paroneayeait's tough and the concerns are valid15:26
paroneayeabut your options are probably CC-BY and CC-BY-SA or similarly approved existing licenses15:26
paroneayeaand that's pretty much it15:26
greg-gyes, code under GPL, media under CC:BY/BY-SA15:26
* greg-g needs to go do some other work15:26
paroneayeayes me too15:27
greg-gfeel free to email me, greg@creativecommons15:27
remaximgreg-g, my music actually under CC: by-nc or CC:by-nc-sa15:28
remaximgreg-g, thanks for helping15:28
remaximparoneayea, also thanks for your help15:28
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paroneayearemaxim: np15:39
remaximparoneayea, there was something you told making me wondering15:40
remaximdo you have some time gain?15:40
paroneayeanot really, djangocon will be starting soon and then I'll have to do RealWork (TM) :)15:40
paroneayeaor at least, RealVolunteering (TM)15:41
remaximI hope RealWork looks nice ;)15:41
remaximOK, have fun15:41
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jibotjgay is http://www.gnu.org/people/speakers.html#Gay16:20
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jibotakozak is Alex Kozak, Program Assistant at ccLearn and SFC@Berkeley co-founder and a norse god16:38
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JED3guess I'm not the only one who doesn't care much for the fluorescents akozak & mralex16:55
akozakJED3: this is lighter than my apt usually is :)16:55
mralexindeed ;)16:56
JED3mecredis: ping16:57
mecredisJED3: pong16:59
JED3want to sync sometime today on cc.net?16:59
mecredishrm, yes, but going to be busy from 12pm PST +17:00
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mecrediswould be good in 15 min if you want17:00
mecredis& are17:00
JED3sure 15m works17:00
mecrediscall me?17:01
JED3do you have skype?17:01
mecredisits mecredis17:02
JED3mecredis: can i push back 10 min?17:13
mecredisas in 10:30?17:13
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mecredisJED3: ready when you are17:42
JED3did you get my skype msg?17:42
mecredistry again?17:43
mecrediswhats yoiurs?17:44
JED3hmm still nothing?17:44
mecredisis your computer on?17:45
mecredissorry, just nightmares of skype troubleshooting with family17:45
mecredisbut what is your username?17:45
mecrediswow, I must be in an alternate skype universe17:46
mecredisit says you do't exist17:46
mecredislet me restart the app17:46
* JED3 doing the same17:46
mecredisno luck17:46
mecrediscall me?17:46
akozaki hate it when computers tell me i don't exist...17:46
mecredisyou can't fight their brutal logic, though17:47
akozakits like they know something I don17:47
akozakexactly :)17:47
mecrediswhen my brother got accepted to grad school17:47
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mecredishe was sent a letter simultaneously rejecting him17:47
mecredisboth had his name spelled wrong and in different ways17:47
mecredisit was incredible17:47
JED3haha nice17:48
akozakthat's surreal17:48
JED3mecredis: number?17:48
mecredis917 826 781917:48
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jibotmlinksva is from Creative Commons and Mike Linksvayer17:49
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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and madebyparker.com and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern19:01
JED3blast, missed the staff updates by 30 seconds19:03
pyraki get shocked whenever i touch the back of my server, near the psu19:06
pyrakthis is bad?19:06
greg-gpyrak: yes.19:06
pyrakbesides some hard drive issue on one of the discs, it's working fine.  maybe i should just never touch it.19:09
greg-gthat is one solution, and make sure that nothing else touches it19:14
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akozakman, woot.com had 150$ eee pc 900s last night.19:22
akozaki was so tempted19:23
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pyrakthis just in: kvm switches are awesome19:44
akozakmecredis and mralex: does cc use automatic posting to twitter from the blog feed?19:56
mralexakozak: nope, and it shouldn't19:56
akozakmralex: ok, we recently shut ours off at cclearn and jane wants it back. i'm sort of against it.19:57
akozakmakes for better tweets if we do it ourselves19:57
mralexmecredis sometimes adds contextual comments with the url, which indeed makes for better posting19:57
mralexand not everything needs to be twitterered19:57
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jibotJoiIto is blogging at http://joi.ito.com/ and the CEO of Creative Commons21:15
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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and madebyparker.com and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern21:25
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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and madebyparker.com and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern22:09
pyrakmlinksva, ping22:10
pyrakdunno if you got my @, but autonomo.us site seems to be having issues.  at least from here.22:10
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pyrakgreg-g, turns out the culprit was a surge suppressor22:56
pyrakthe same surge suppressor which is supposed to suppress surges on the big screen tv, stereo, dvd player, and vudu22:57
pyrakalso printer and router22:57
pyrakgood thing i figured this out before something bad happened22:57
mlinksvapyrak: i did see.  it is mako's server23:05
mlinksvai see you pinged him too23:06
pyrakmlinksva, ok23:11
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jibotJoiIto is blogging at http://joi.ito.com/ and the CEO of Creative Commons23:17
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remaximpyrak, wow... your picture "Staircase Down, 2006" is amazing23:23
pyrakremaxim, thanks! :)23:31
remaximpyrak, I am glad that I just found out it is under CC SA23:31
remaximI might use it for an jamendo album ... I ll write you an email if I do so :)23:32
pyrakcool, feel free.  i'd be honored.23:32
remaximSomehow it really feels strange not to ask for permission23:33
remaximbut the photo just hit me like... that's exactly what I was looking for...23:33
remaximtotally happy23:34
pyrakremaxim, cool.  whole point of putting it online and licensing it was to make it useful for other people :)23:35
pyraki suppose i really ought to have these photos tagged and maybe crossposted on something like flickr23:35
remaximthanks, I just hope the artist I ask for doing something didn't start yet23:35
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remaximpyrak, some of them are really beautiful23:36
remaximcover art material ;)23:36
pyraki guess i hadn't really thought about it, but a lot of my stuff has a lot of empty space, which would lend itself well to that kind of thing23:37
remaximoh, I dunno if I really want to put my name on the picture...23:38
remaximI just ment that it looks very deep and beautiful, something you would want to put on your cover23:38
pyrakah.  well either way, thanks :)23:39
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remaximI have to go now, if I am lucky and I ll be able to use it, you ll get my email soon :)23:40
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pyrakfwiw, turns out the issue was actually the outlet, not the surge suppressor.  time to call the electrician, i guess.23:57

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