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| jibot | pyrak is Parker Phinney and madebyparker.com and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
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| greg-g | I wish mlinksva was here right now so I could share with him this url: http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/2642/2287 | 01:50 |
| greg-g | not for the content, but for the url | 01:50 |
| paulproteus | greg-g, others: http://www.asheesh.org/note/debian/not-a-food-truck.html | 02:01 |
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| greg-g | paulproteus: I love that idea, subscribed alright :) | 02:02 |
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| pyrak | where is autonomo.us hosted? | 04:35 |
| pyrak | it's lagging like crazy right now | 04:35 |
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| jibot | JoiIto is blogging at http://joi.ito.com/ and the CEO of Creative Commons | 04:52 |
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| twb | The textbook at http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/ is licensed under the CC (by-nc, 3.0). | 07:49 |
| twb | This means I can *distribute* PDFized versions, right? | 07:50 |
| twb | As long as I do so gratis | 07:50 |
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| jibot | robmyers is Rob Myers and going to talk about freedom. Ignore him. | 08:22 |
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| Tanguy | Hello. | 09:17 |
| Tanguy | I have seen several concerns about licencing an opinion essay with a free licence, because someone would then be able to distort the author's sayings. | 09:19 |
| Tanguy | Does that make any sense? Is it actually just legal to cite someone's modified text without mentionning the fact it has been modified? | 09:24 |
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| jibot | JoiIto is blogging at http://joi.ito.com/ and the CEO of Creative Commons | 09:28 |
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| remaxim | Hi | 14:20 |
| remaxim | The CC seems to be known for a lot of innovative and creative licenses that help to deal with a lot of real situations... | 14:22 |
| remaxim | the thing I am wondering about is if it is possible to suggest a new type of license | 14:23 |
| remaxim | as every license is an immense amount of work I am wondering if it is possible and if yes, where to suggest | 14:23 |
| greg-g | remaxim: We are always open to suggestions and there will likely be a version 4.0 of the licenses where we take outside input | 14:26 |
| remaxim | oh, great! I be right back to tell you my suggestion | 14:26 |
| greg-g | sounds good, but it might easily get lost in the ether of IRC, I would suggest writing an email via this page: http://creativecommons.org/contact (or to the email list under the "License Development and Versioning List" section) | 14:28 |
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| remaxim | I am back | 14:37 |
| remaxim | greg-g, the problem and the idea are quite fuzzy and it might help me to discuss it with someone from the CC first. Could you help me with that? | 14:38 |
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| greg-g | remaxim: I could, but email might be better for me today as I'm trying to catch up with work stuff :) | 14:44 |
| greg-g | But of course, there are other people here too, so lay it out there and we'll respond when/if we can :) | 14:44 |
| remaxim | greg-g, I am not sure if it is even your area of licenses, so I ll try it here first. thanks | 14:45 |
| greg-g | cool | 14:45 |
| remaxim | I ve tried to be a music composer for open source games for a while and had quite some problems with the licenses that in the end pushed me away from this hobby | 14:46 |
| greg-g | ahhh | 14:47 |
| remaxim | greg-g, known issue? | 14:47 |
| remaxim | I mean, is it a known issue? | 14:47 |
| greg-g | well, you haven't shared any specifics yet, so not sure :) | 14:48 |
| remaxim | ok... continuing | 14:48 |
| greg-g | but, in general, kinda. The compatibility issues with CC licenses and Free/Libre Open Source Software | 14:48 |
| remaxim | yeah, true ... | 14:48 |
| greg-g | (which basically means just use either CC:BY or CC:BY-SA, avoid the -NC and -ND options) | 14:49 |
| remaxim | On the one hand I ve tried to ensure that my work couldn't be used for commercial games (as I invested much work and time into it), while on the other hand I couldn't use the NC tag, as because of debian-legal and similar organisations project leader didn't take nc media | 14:49 |
| greg-g | right | 14:49 |
| remaxim | I think this issue is known for quite some time | 14:50 |
| greg-g | it is, and I think the solution is to use BY/BY-SA for creative works you want to include in FLOSS stuff | 14:51 |
| remaxim | that's where it get tricky now... and as I am no lawyer, it might not be correct as well | 14:51 |
| greg-g | we even adapted our licenses to address some concerns from the Debian-legal team: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Version_3#Debian | 14:52 |
| remaxim | yeah, I know... that is what stopped me from doing that | 14:52 |
| remaxim | I ve heard of that... very nice from you | 14:52 |
| greg-g | what might not be correct? | 14:52 |
| remaxim | "my" idea | 14:52 |
| greg-g | which is? :) | 14:52 |
| remaxim | some time ago I heard of an idea that you could make a license for GPL games or general open source games | 14:53 |
| remaxim | it ensures that the media is usuable under the terms of GPL as long as shipped with an GPL game | 14:53 |
| greg-g | "make a license"? | 14:53 |
| remaxim | create a new license | 14:54 |
| greg-g | I would personally suggest not creating yet another license | 14:54 |
| paroneayea | meow | 14:55 |
| * greg-g waves | 14:55 | |
| remaxim | if the media is not shipped with the game, it should be under CC-by-nc-sa or something like that | 14:55 |
| remaxim | greg-g, usually I would agree with you 100% as there are way too many licenses already | 14:56 |
| remaxim | but for this one I can't find any other solution | 14:56 |
| greg-g | remaxim: but that doesn't stop someone from getting the game and extract the music and reditribute the music as BY-SA by itself | 14:56 |
| remaxim | greg-g, why? | 14:56 |
| greg-g | there is no easy NonCommercial-only-for-certain-use-cases solution | 14:56 |
| greg-g | because someone _can_ do that under the terms of BY-SA | 14:57 |
| paroneayea | which is a feature :) | 14:57 |
| greg-g | otherwise it wouldn't be considered an Open/Free license by debian | 14:57 |
| greg-g | exactly! :) | 14:57 |
| remaxim | greg-g, I don't get it yet | 14:57 |
| paroneayea | remaxim: in other words, debian wants the ability for users to remix and redistribute content in the same way that they want that for code | 14:58 |
| paroneayea | if you want it in debian, you're going to have to give users that level of freedom | 14:58 |
| remaxim | true... I know | 14:58 |
| remaxim | I ve heard (but am not sure if it is true) that the original idea for this license is made by richard stallman and eben moglen ... | 14:59 |
| greg-g | which license? | 14:59 |
| greg-g | and define "original idea" | 14:59 |
| remaxim | greg-g, without the CC part | 15:00 |
| greg-g | "the CC part"? | 15:00 |
| remaxim | that media can be distributed as long as it is with gpl | 15:00 |
| remaxim | "if the media is not shipped with the game, it should be under CC-by-nc-sa or something like that" is not from them | 15:00 |
| greg-g | nor from us | 15:00 |
| remaxim | it's from me ... I just wrote it ;) | 15:01 |
| remaxim | the thing that makes me believe in it is that richard stallman doesn't believe in GPL as a media license nor whole games under GPL licenses | 15:01 |
| greg-g | so, here is the legal (IANAL but I like to read) implications of that: you are essentially dual licensing the content as BY-NC-SA and BY-SA which means people can choose which one they want to use no matter what. There isn't much to stop them. | 15:02 |
| paroneayea | in other words, the NC restriction doesn't apply | 15:02 |
| remaxim | true, it doesn't apply | 15:03 |
| paroneayea | because BY-SA doesn't apply to "only under these conditions" | 15:03 |
| paroneayea | er, not under your additional restrictions | 15:03 |
| remaxim | greg-g, you mean my idea... | 15:03 |
| greg-g | remaxim: yes. | 15:03 |
| remaxim | maybe you re right... as I am no lawyer | 15:03 |
| paroneayea | remaxim: if you say something is under BY-SA, it is under BY-SA regardless of whether it is distributed with the game or not | 15:04 |
| paroneayea | that's one of the features of the license :) | 15:04 |
| remaxim | paroneayea, it doesn't have to be by-sa ... just a new license | 15:04 |
| paroneayea | remaxim: pushing through a new license is almost certainly completely unnecessary, a waste of your time and licensing committees, and will almost certainly also mean your package will be rejected | 15:05 |
| paroneayea | use an existing debian approved license :) | 15:05 |
| remaxim | paroneayea, I won't use annother license, just not contributing anymore... as I am doing already | 15:06 |
| remaxim | I think the big problem is that there are lots of artists not contributing to free games as they are being afraid of people using their work for free for their commercial games and work | 15:07 |
| greg-g | remaxim: so you just don't want to contribute to a Free game project because you want your contribution to be licensed under a -NC license and they (debian et. al) won't accept that? | 15:07 |
| remaxim | I might got a wrong view, but I don't think I am wrong with this ... I know I think like that | 15:07 |
| remaxim | greg-g, true | 15:07 |
| greg-g | I understand the concern, but that is kinda the point of big F Free(dom) | 15:08 |
| paroneayea | remaxim: game art is usually almost always so specializd that it's terribly unlikely that someone will manage to use it outside of one specific game anyway | 15:08 |
| remaxim | paroneayea, absolutely not true ... just take a look at the exploiding flash game industry | 15:09 |
| paroneayea | and if it's under cc-by-sa they can't make a sucker out of you, because they'll also have to share a like if they make modifications or add to the artwork | 15:09 |
| paroneayea | (share alike, not share "a like") | 15:09 |
| greg-g | paroneayea: never heard that phrase before, I like it :) | 15:10 |
| remaxim | paroneayea, 99% don't add anything just add other songs that may be not CC | 15:10 |
| remaxim | greg-g, back to your concern | 15:10 |
| remaxim | code is hard to seperate or to use by itsown and they have very strict rules about linking in the gpl | 15:11 |
| remaxim | you can't just take special fragments of code and use it in your code | 15:11 |
| greg-g | yes, I'm familiar with the GPL | 15:12 |
| paroneayea | remaxim: cc-by-sa is designed to do the same as well as can be done in terms of media | 15:12 |
| paroneayea | I'm assuming your concern is whether or not to contribute artwork to the postapocolyptic rpg game then? | 15:12 |
| paroneayea | since you're in that channel | 15:12 |
| remaxim | paroneayea, nope, that is for coding/experimenting purposes | 15:12 |
| paroneayea | ah | 15:13 |
| paroneayea | well anyway, I think this situation is simple, can be summarized in a couple of points | 15:13 |
| remaxim | paroneayea, there were LOTS of games I already wanted to contribute but didn't do it | 15:13 |
| remaxim | paroneayea, let me finish first | 15:13 |
| greg-g | :) | 15:13 |
| paroneayea | okay? | 15:14 |
| remaxim | greg-g, on the other hand commercial games can take my songs without changing anything in their game except the credits, and use it or just pieces of it (I don't consider parts of songs a good contribution in sense of share alike) | 15:14 |
| remaxim | basically exploiting free work... at least I feel like that | 15:14 |
| greg-g | not if you license it BY-SA | 15:15 |
| paroneayea | remaxim: well a) that hasn't happened with the extrordinarily good music of Wesnoth and etc. | 15:15 |
| paroneayea | b) BY-SA protects that as well as can be done for media | 15:15 |
| paroneayea | c) any additional restrictions WON'T be considered free within free and open source software distributions | 15:15 |
| remaxim | greg-g, SA means that the song is share alike not the whole game or game music? | 15:15 |
| remaxim | or did I get something wrong? | 15:16 |
| paroneayea | remaxim: It would probably be with all media content | 15:16 |
| greg-g | see the FAQ: "Under Creative Commons’ core licenses, syncing music in timed-relation with a moving image is also considered to be a derivative work." | 15:17 |
| remaxim | greg-g, so the whole game has to be CC? | 15:17 |
| greg-g | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions | 15:17 |
| remaxim | I ll read it and probably will ask some more questions, thanks | 15:18 |
| paroneayea | remaxim: it's reasonable to assume that the media would have to be under the same license or a compatible (more permissive non-copyleft, presumably CC-BY) license | 15:18 |
| greg-g | not necessarily, the term "derivative" is not a very easy thing for lawyers to define (mainly because they don't want to :) ) | 15:18 |
| paroneayea | so yes | 15:18 |
| remaxim | greg-g, that seems very complicated... | 15:19 |
| greg-g | copyright law is, unfortunately, that is why CC is trying to make things better/easier/clearer | 15:20 |
| remaxim | I just read that syncing with a movie is a derivate work, but it might get complicated with code | 15:20 |
| remaxim | as not the code is the derivate work but the output of the code | 15:20 |
| * remaxim is scratching his head | 15:21 | |
| remaxim | is my concern reasonable? I don't really feel like this is a clear thing, meaning that it might be very hard to pursue it legally | 15:22 |
| paroneayea | remaxim: chances are it wouldn't even come down to a legal challenge. | 15:22 |
| greg-g | food for thought: screenshots of games are copyrighted and the copyright is held by the game producer, even if the screenshot was taken by someone else. Because that screen is a "derivative" of the code. | 15:23 |
| paroneayea | if a proprietary game company discovered that remixing their game content with yours would mean they'd have to release their stuff under a free software license either | 15:23 |
| paroneayea | a) most likely, they'd be scared away | 15:23 |
| paroneayea | b) there's some chance they'd contribute back then | 15:23 |
| greg-g | I think your concern over NC is reasonable, but must be seen from the standpoint of the rest of the Free/Open community, a community that has very important ethos that everyone shares, and if those ethos aren't shared by yourself, then unfortunately contributing is not easy. | 15:24 |
| remaxim | paroneayea, good chances, but it isn't legally pursueable and creators of the game probably won't be aware of it | 15:24 |
| remaxim | so no protection there | 15:24 |
| remaxim | greg-g, strange thing is that I actually share it in matter of code but not media | 15:25 |
| paroneayea | these problems are probably both bigger than you're worrying about them and certainly will apply in any license circumstance ever | 15:25 |
| remaxim | I release code under gpl and my music under CC ... as bythemselves I feel secure | 15:25 |
| paroneayea | it's tough and the concerns are valid | 15:26 |
| paroneayea | but your options are probably CC-BY and CC-BY-SA or similarly approved existing licenses | 15:26 |
| paroneayea | and that's pretty much it | 15:26 |
| greg-g | yes, code under GPL, media under CC:BY/BY-SA | 15:26 |
| greg-g | :) | 15:26 |
| * greg-g needs to go do some other work | 15:26 | |
| paroneayea | yes me too | 15:27 |
| paroneayea | later | 15:27 |
| greg-g | feel free to email me, greg@creativecommons | 15:27 |
| remaxim | greg-g, my music actually under CC: by-nc or CC:by-nc-sa | 15:28 |
| remaxim | greg-g, thanks for helping | 15:28 |
| remaxim | paroneayea, also thanks for your help | 15:28 |
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| paroneayea | remaxim: np | 15:39 |
| remaxim | paroneayea, there was something you told making me wondering | 15:40 |
| remaxim | do you have some time gain? | 15:40 |
| paroneayea | not really, djangocon will be starting soon and then I'll have to do RealWork (TM) :) | 15:40 |
| paroneayea | or at least, RealVolunteering (TM) | 15:41 |
| remaxim | I hope RealWork looks nice ;) | 15:41 |
| remaxim | OK, have fun | 15:41 |
| remaxim | bye | 15:41 |
| paroneayea | later | 15:41 |
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| jibot | jgay is http://www.gnu.org/people/speakers.html#Gay | 16:20 |
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| jibot | akozak is Alex Kozak, Program Assistant at ccLearn and SFC@Berkeley co-founder and a norse god | 16:38 |
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| JED3 | guess I'm not the only one who doesn't care much for the fluorescents akozak & mralex | 16:55 |
| akozak | JED3: this is lighter than my apt usually is :) | 16:55 |
| mralex | indeed ;) | 16:56 |
| JED3 | mecredis: ping | 16:57 |
| mecredis | JED3: pong | 16:59 |
| JED3 | want to sync sometime today on cc.net? | 16:59 |
| mecredis | hrm, yes, but going to be busy from 12pm PST + | 17:00 |
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| mecredis | would be good in 15 min if you want | 17:00 |
| mecredis | & are | 17:00 |
| JED3 | sure 15m works | 17:00 |
| mecredis | k | 17:01 |
| mecredis | call me? | 17:01 |
| JED3 | do you have skype? | 17:01 |
| mecredis | sure | 17:02 |
| mecredis | its mecredis | 17:02 |
| JED3 | cool | 17:02 |
| JED3 | mecredis: can i push back 10 min? | 17:13 |
| mecredis | as in 10:30? | 17:13 |
| mecredis | sure | 17:13 |
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| remaxim | bye | 17:27 |
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| mecredis | JED3: ready when you are | 17:42 |
| JED3 | did you get my skype msg? | 17:42 |
| mecredis | nope? | 17:43 |
| mecredis | try again? | 17:43 |
| mecredis | whats yoiurs? | 17:44 |
| JED3 | hmm still nothing? | 17:44 |
| JED3 | jedoig | 17:44 |
| mecredis | nada | 17:44 |
| mecredis | is your computer on? | 17:45 |
| mecredis | heh | 17:45 |
| JED3 | haha | 17:45 |
| mecredis | sorry, just nightmares of skype troubleshooting with family | 17:45 |
| JED3 | lol | 17:45 |
| mecredis | but what is your username? | 17:45 |
| JED3 | jedoig | 17:45 |
| mecredis | wow, I must be in an alternate skype universe | 17:46 |
| mecredis | it says you do't exist | 17:46 |
| mecredis | let me restart the app | 17:46 |
| * JED3 doing the same | 17:46 | |
| mecredis | weird | 17:46 |
| mecredis | no luck | 17:46 |
| mecredis | call me? | 17:46 |
| akozak | i hate it when computers tell me i don't exist... | 17:46 |
| mecredis | you can't fight their brutal logic, though | 17:47 |
| akozak | its like they know something I don | 17:47 |
| akozak | haha | 17:47 |
| akozak | exactly :) | 17:47 |
| mecredis | when my brother got accepted to grad school | 17:47 |
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| mecredis | he was sent a letter simultaneously rejecting him | 17:47 |
| akozak | hahaha | 17:47 |
| mecredis | both had his name spelled wrong and in different ways | 17:47 |
| mecredis | hahhaa | 17:47 |
| mecredis | it was incredible | 17:47 |
| JED3 | haha nice | 17:48 |
| akozak | that's surreal | 17:48 |
| JED3 | mecredis: number? | 17:48 |
| mecredis | 917 826 7819 | 17:48 |
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| jibot | mlinksva is from Creative Commons and Mike Linksvayer | 17:49 |
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| jibot | pyrak is Parker Phinney and madebyparker.com and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern | 19:01 |
| JED3 | blast, missed the staff updates by 30 seconds | 19:03 |
| pyrak | i get shocked whenever i touch the back of my server, near the psu | 19:06 |
| pyrak | this is bad? | 19:06 |
| greg-g | pyrak: yes. | 19:06 |
| pyrak | ef/ | 19:08 |
| pyrak | besides some hard drive issue on one of the discs, it's working fine. maybe i should just never touch it. | 19:09 |
| greg-g | that is one solution, and make sure that nothing else touches it | 19:14 |
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| akozak | man, woot.com had 150$ eee pc 900s last night. | 19:22 |
| akozak | i was so tempted | 19:23 |
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| remaxim | hi | 19:28 |
| pyrak | this just in: kvm switches are awesome | 19:44 |
| akozak | mecredis and mralex: does cc use automatic posting to twitter from the blog feed? | 19:56 |
| mralex | akozak: nope, and it shouldn't | 19:56 |
| akozak | mralex: ok, we recently shut ours off at cclearn and jane wants it back. i'm sort of against it. | 19:57 |
| akozak | makes for better tweets if we do it ourselves | 19:57 |
| mralex | mecredis sometimes adds contextual comments with the url, which indeed makes for better posting | 19:57 |
| mralex | and not everything needs to be twitterered | 19:57 |
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| jibot | JoiIto is blogging at http://joi.ito.com/ and the CEO of Creative Commons | 21:15 |
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| jibot | pyrak is Parker Phinney and madebyparker.com and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern | 21:25 |
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| jibot | pyrak is Parker Phinney and madebyparker.com and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern | 22:09 |
| pyrak | mlinksva, ping | 22:10 |
| pyrak | dunno if you got my @, but autonomo.us site seems to be having issues. at least from here. | 22:10 |
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| pyrak | greg-g, turns out the culprit was a surge suppressor | 22:56 |
| pyrak | the same surge suppressor which is supposed to suppress surges on the big screen tv, stereo, dvd player, and vudu | 22:57 |
| pyrak | also printer and router | 22:57 |
| pyrak | good thing i figured this out before something bad happened | 22:57 |
| mlinksva | pyrak: i did see. it is mako's server | 23:05 |
| mlinksva | i see you pinged him too | 23:06 |
| pyrak | mlinksva, ok | 23:11 |
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| jibot | JoiIto is blogging at http://joi.ito.com/ and the CEO of Creative Commons | 23:17 |
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| remaxim | pyrak, wow... your picture "Staircase Down, 2006" is amazing | 23:23 |
| pyrak | remaxim, thanks! :) | 23:31 |
| remaxim | pyrak, I am glad that I just found out it is under CC SA | 23:31 |
| remaxim | I might use it for an jamendo album ... I ll write you an email if I do so :) | 23:32 |
| pyrak | cool, feel free. i'd be honored. | 23:32 |
| remaxim | Somehow it really feels strange not to ask for permission | 23:33 |
| remaxim | but the photo just hit me like... that's exactly what I was looking for... | 23:33 |
| remaxim | totally happy | 23:34 |
| pyrak | remaxim, cool. whole point of putting it online and licensing it was to make it useful for other people :) | 23:35 |
| pyrak | i suppose i really ought to have these photos tagged and maybe crossposted on something like flickr | 23:35 |
| remaxim | thanks, I just hope the artist I ask for doing something didn't start yet | 23:35 |
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| remaxim | pyrak, some of them are really beautiful | 23:36 |
| remaxim | cover art material ;) | 23:36 |
| pyrak | i guess i hadn't really thought about it, but a lot of my stuff has a lot of empty space, which would lend itself well to that kind of thing | 23:37 |
| remaxim | oh, I dunno if I really want to put my name on the picture... | 23:38 |
| remaxim | I just ment that it looks very deep and beautiful, something you would want to put on your cover | 23:38 |
| pyrak | ah. well either way, thanks :) | 23:39 |
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| remaxim | I have to go now, if I am lucky and I ll be able to use it, you ll get my email soon :) | 23:40 |
| remaxim | bye | 23:40 |
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| pyrak | fwiw, turns out the issue was actually the outlet, not the surge suppressor. time to call the electrician, i guess. | 23:57 |
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