Thursday, 2009-08-13

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paroneayeahm... when should we leave for teh cc salon?01:01
* paroneayea thinks he will leave in 15 minutes or so01:03
Bovinitysounds about right01:06
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nkinkadeakozak: Do you know what Asheesh did yesterday to fix the cache issue on OpenEd?  Seems like a good thing for me to know for future reference.16:04
akozakI think he just ran /home/paulproteus/cronjobs/update_opened.sh16:08
akozaknkinkade: ^^16:08
nkinkadeakozak: Cool.  Thanks.16:08
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akozakJED3: are there staff accts for cc network?16:53
JED3akozak: they can be created16:53
JED3would you like me to set you one up for you?16:54
akozakJED3: that would be nice so that I can test openid on opened when we get it installed.16:54
akozaki don't have an openid acct16:54
JED3ahh okay16:54
JED3what do you want your username to be? this will also be your openid identifier16:54
akozakakozak works16:55
akozaknkinkade: do you know how openid logins work on mediawiki when the openid conficts with a mediawiki acct?16:55
greg-gBovinity: you alright? (re: dropping your bike on the way into work)16:56
Bovinitygreg-g: yeah, no harm done16:56
nkinkadeakozak: It merges the accounts in some way, I think.16:57
greg-gBovinity: good deal.16:57
akozaknkinkade: hmm ok.16:57
JED3akozak: whats your cc email?16:57
nkinkadeAt least that's what I've seen in the past.16:57
akozakJED3: akozak@16:57
nkinkadeWhen I login to the CC Wiki with OpenID, it somehow recognizes my main account and I work under those same privileges.16:58
nkinkadeThere must be more to it, though, as that could involve security issues.16:58
nkinkadeIn sum, I'm not 100% sure.16:58
nathanyparoneayea: you want to meet re: milestones?17:00
akozaknkinkade: wanna tackle openid today?17:04
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akozaknkinkade: ill be back in a bit17:10
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pyrakparoneayea, my blog post i was telling you about last night:17:16
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Quarlhey guys, is it possible to use a noncommercial cc-licensed work in a commercial product if i'm not making money from the work itself?17:21
paroneayeapyrak: nice post17:40
paroneayeaI certainly agree that that's the right idea.  It's a hard problem to actually implement though17:40
pyrakparoneayea, sure.  and like i said, there are some important freedom questions that need to be examined within this idea17:41
paroneayeaI think more importantly there are some difficult technical issues17:42
paroneayeaeg, installing a django app usually requires modifying python files17:42
paroneayeaalso things like, what about mount points?17:42
paroneayeado you support just one web server in this system, or multiple?17:42
paroneayeait sounds like it would involve an abstraction layer that would involve writing apache configuration files, or maybe nginx configuration files, or some such thing17:43
pyrakparoneayea, right.  so at the moment i'm imagining that the solution to a number of those problems is to just make a reasonable choice on a setting and go ahead and apply it17:43
pyrakit's also worth noting that i'm aware that this might mean that apps would need to seriously alter their install processes17:44
pyrakor perhaps have two totally different install processes17:44
paroneayeathere's kind of a developer vs sysadmin war that happens with packaging17:45
paroneayeaor, at least, that's how it is phrased17:45
paroneayeait actually may more realistically be developer vs sysadmin vs user17:45
paroneayeawhere sysadmins and users are closer together, when it comes to webapps17:45
paroneayeadevelopers of python applications often prefer systems like buildout and virtualenv that localize a development and deployment environment, at least in the python world17:46
paroneayeain other words, developers often don't even use the version of python bundled with the system17:46
paroneayeathis is most especially true for web development17:46
paroneayeaso especially in the area of web development, we're creating a lot of packages that aren't being packaged for apt and etc, and are intended to be deployed by other developers17:47
paroneayeaso this heightens the issue of difficult-to-deploy webapps17:48
paroneayeaI think it actually *is* true that it's often "better" to localize python and etc rather than use the system python... if you know how to do that17:49
paroneayeabut.. that means that non-developers will pretty much never be able to use your package17:49
paroneayeaand admittedly myself, I know nothing about system packaging with apt, rpm or whatever.  I just use it17:50
paroneayeaso maybe I should learn about that17:51
JED3paroneayea: this is true for python apps, but what about the php apps?17:51
paroneayeaJED3: that's why php apps are often considered "more deployable" than python apps17:51
paroneayeausually you just have to untar a tarball17:51
paroneayeaor even just copy files over via (s)ftp or similar, which many non-developers can do with simple instructions17:52
paroneayeaian bicking has talked a few times about php getting deployment "right" in that sense17:52
paroneayeabut I think what pyrak is talking about is an even easier abstracted system for deploying webapps and etc, that doesn't necessairly involve untarring anything17:53
paroneayeausing actual package management and maybe a web or gtk gui17:53
paroneayeapyrak: is that right?17:54
pyrakoh snap17:55
* pyrak reads17:55
JED3I think deploying python and ruby should be made easier for everyone17:56
paroneayeaI agree17:56
pyrakJED3, right on!17:56
pyrakparoneayea, yes, you're mostly right re: what i'm talking about17:57
pyraki'm mostly interested in a web interface17:57
pyrakreally, i want wp-admin, but to administrate my whole server17:57
JED3ahh okay17:58
JED3have you looked at the Axis project?17:58
pyrakJED3, narp.17:58
JED3Apache Axis*17:58
JED3basically you drop a tarball and it installs and configures on the fly18:00
JED3... in a horrifically easy java-esque fashion18:01
paroneayeaoh neat18:02
nathanypaulproteus: SYN18:02
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paroneayeanathany: looks like there are two implementations of zpt in chameleon18:17
paroneayeaone is
paroneayeaother is
paroneayeathe latter is supposedly to be fully compatible18:18
paroneayeaie, default expression type isn't python18:18
paroneayeait's the whatcha/ma/callit18:19
nathanyparoneayea: cool; maybe we'll use that one for cc.engine18:28
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deeI haven't found it in the faq. Is there a way to store the cc-license information on a media to give it away. I mean a simple text file with the information would be enough.19:05
greg-gdee:  you mean embedding the license information into the file, yes there is19:05
greg-gthere are multiple ways, depending on the file type19:06
greg-gwhat kind of media are you thinking of distributing?19:06
deegreg-g: sveral images. An I want to store a txt-file in the containing folder.19:06
greg-goh, you want a separate text file of the license information? A standard way of doing that is to include a file with the name "LICENSE" in the folder and that file copies, verbatim, the license text. In the case of CC licenses, that would be the "legalcode" like what is found here:
deeokay, so there is no "predefined" text file for download available?19:08
deeI don't want to make a mistake when copying (forget the header or something like that) and the the license would not be valid.19:09
greg-gjust copy everything starting at "License"19:10
greg-gdee: and if you want to be explicit, you can also have a "COPYING" file in that folder which says something to the effect of "all images contained in this package are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike 3.0 license (  These images include: name1, name2 name3, name4, name5 etc"19:13
deeok, thx.19:14
greg-gand, even better, is actually embedding the metadata into the actual image files. See: and and
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deeto be honest: Too much work for 50 images. ;)19:15
greg-gyeah, maybe, but some of those tools can do bulk work19:15
deeOkay, unfortunately not for "standard" images like png19:16
greg-gpng supports xmp19:17
deeOkay, PNG is not listed on
deeok, maybe I will add the information, but the license file is enough for a first run.19:22
deethx for the help and good night.19:22
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paulproteusnathany, ACK20:07
greg-gnathany: I thought someone was trying to spam the [[Web Integration]] page by adding this to the Tools of the trade section, but, it isn't spam. Have you seen:
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nathanygreg-g: yeah, someone pointed it out to me...20:20
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nathanyquite a while ago, though20:20
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nathanypaulproteus: I had a debian packaging question for you20:21
* paulproteus waves to nathany 20:21
nathanypaulproteus: Roundup is @ 1.4.4 in Debian; 1.4.9 just came out with bug fixes I'd like20:21
nathanyis there an easy way to say "please make me a dpkg but use this source tarball over here instead"?20:21
paulproteusThe normal thing to do is to:20:22
paulproteus1. apt-get source roundup20:22
paulproteus2. download the new roundup tarball20:22
nathanygreg-g: i once again pushed the tech checkin meeting to thursday; if we need to chat ca you call the conf line in 10 and join us?20:22
paulproteus3. Apply the diff.gz from the Debian package to the new roundup package20:22
paulproteus4. run "dch -i" to log that you're rebuilding it20:22
paulproteus5. run "dpkg-buildpackage" to build.20:22
greg-gnathany: probably don't need to, my current project is to replicate the Web Integration Howto for Desktop stuff, which I've begun outlining (locally)20:23
paulproteusThe diff.gz creates the debian/* files which are needed for packaging.20:23
nathanygot it20:23
nathanysounds good, greg-g20:23
nathanypaulproteus: the output of buildpackage is the deb, correct?20:23
nathanycool, i'll give that a try20:23
paulproteusYou may need to "apt-get build-dep roundup" to be sure you have all the build-time dependencies.20:24
nathanyah, ok20:24
* greg-g was just going to say something about build-dep ;)20:24
paulproteusI wonder why Toni Mueller hasn't updated roundup lately.20:24
nathanydoes apt-get source just drop that in `cwd`?20:24
paulproteusnathany, Ya20:24
paulproteusIf that all works, I can upload it to Debian assuming the maintainer doesn't mind.20:26
nathanypaulproteus: won't it be missing changes, etc?20:26
nathany(not sure)20:26
paulproteusIt's good to file a bug against the package explaining what you did and that it did work if it does.20:26
paulproteusnathany, Well, I'd re-do it and ensure high quality, but if it generally works, then I would actually start re-doing it.20:26
nathanygot it20:27
paulproteusThere's a debian/patches/ directory, iirc, in the roundup package.20:27
paulproteusThis is the extra patches that Debian added.20:27
paulproteus indicates Toni Mueller is busy but willing to let others co-maintain the package.20:27
nathanypaulproteus: ok, i need to do the tech mtg, will try later20:27
nathanyJED3: paroneayea: pyrak: nkinkade: tech checkin?20:31
pyraknathany, roger20:31
nathanywe can call from the conf room20:31
nathanynkinkade: we just dialed in20:33
nkinkadeI'll dial in now.20:33
nathanysweet smooth jazz20:33
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nathanydpkg-buildpackage: host architecture amd6420:48
nathany fakeroot debian/rules clean20:48
nathany/usr/bin/fakeroot: line 164: debian/rules: Permission denied20:48
nathanydpkg-buildpackage: failure: fakeroot debian/rules clean gave error exit status 12620:48
nathanygreg-g: ^^20:51
greg-gwhats on line 164? (short answer, no, no ideas)20:52
greg-gI've usually had good luck building packages that I've minimally changed (patches)20:53
nathanygreg-g: looks like it's just the clean target (i assume this is line 164 in debian/rules20:55
nathanyrm -fr home build20:55
nathany(seems innocuous to me)20:55
nathanygreg-g: do you run the dpkg-buildpackage from the source directory (ie, roundup-1.4.9)20:55
greg-gnathany: yeah20:56
greg-galthough, I used debuild -S when I've done it, using this guide ('cuz I'm an ubuntu boy):
nathanygreg-g: ah20:58
nkinkadepyrak: Did you just delete mockup3?21:08
nkinkadeI was working in there.21:08
pyraknkinkade, ef, sorry21:09
pyraknkinkade, but didn't i just make that?21:10
pyrakor did we both decide to at the same time?21:11
pyrakthat would explain the permissions issues i was having (which led me to just delete it)21:12
nkinkadenathany: pyrak: Here is a suggestion:
pyraknkinkade, awesome, much more readable21:19
akozakit should be in a java popup box21:20
Bovinityis the alternative what's up on right now?21:20
akozakbest solution ever21:20
nathanyakozak: i assume you mean javascript? and no21:20
nathanythe feedback from the staff breakouts indicated we needed more of an up front explanation21:20
nathanyBovinity: yes21:20
Bovinityexplanation: good. layout: busy, needs improvement.21:21
nathanyBovinity: I made a couple other suggestions to pyrak21:21
nathanywhat about changing the last two sentences to:21:21
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nathany"CC does not record what works are placed under a CC license.  If you are in doubt you should contact the copyright holder directly, or try to contact the site hosting the content. "21:22
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nkinkadeThat works for me.21:22
nathanypyrak: ^^21:23
nkinkadeJust so long as there is something that heads off "Hmm.  I have no idea if the work is under a CC license or not for sure.  Guess I'll email Creative Commons to get the phone number or email address of the copyright holder."21:23
nkinkadepyrak: I even think the "Enter a Search Query Above To Get Started" can go away.  Seems to me that the search box is pretty evident at the top of the page.  Bovinity?21:28
Bovinitypyrak: nathany: a quick firebug mockup that tidies up teh visuals a bit:
nkinkadeBovinity: The box with rounded corners looks nice.21:29
Bovinitynkinkade: i'm on the fence, making it more visible improves it (your blue made it look like a link, btw. i instinctively went to click on it...)21:29
paulproteusnathany, chmod a+x debian/rules21:30
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nathanypaulproteus: i wound up 777-ing the entire source directory :)21:32
nathanybut ran into a bug while it was trying to apply one of the debian patches21:32
paulproteusYeah - you can probably just remove the patch in question.21:32
nathanyer, not bug, error21:32
nathanyah, i was going to ask that21:32
paulproteusYou should update debian/patches/series then21:32
nathanyBovinity: i want to go to there21:32
paulproteusnathany, You should:21:32
nathanypyrak: see Bovinity's mockup21:32
paulproteus./debian/rules clean21:32
paulproteus# remove it from the list in series21:32
paulproteusre-run dpkg-buildpackage21:32
Bovinitynathany: the videos might be better integrated somehow, firebug has it's limitations21:33
nathanyBovinity: right21:33
nathanypaulproteus: where is this series you speak of21:34
paulproteusdebian/patches/series probably21:34
nathanygot it21:34
pyraknathany, Bovinity hi21:34
pyrakokay, i can replicate Bovinity's mockup.  looks good.21:35
pyraki was chatting with nathany about embedding the "wanna work together?" video underneath the not-disclaimer, next to a short paragraph about CC21:35
pyrakshall i still do that?21:36
nathanypyrak: yes, please; i'd like to see it21:36
pyraki'm also wondering how valid these rounded corners are21:36
nathanypyrak: valid?21:36
Bovinitysoft and inviting21:36
Bovinitylike a fluffy sheep21:36
pyrakBovinity, agreed.  w3c-wise21:37
nathanypyrak: totally valid21:37
pyraki see, it's a ffx-specific thing?21:37
nathanythey use -moz and -webkit, i assume21:37
Bovinity-moz- -webkit- border-radius:21:37
Bovinityinclude all three and you're covered21:38
Bovinityexcept for IE, naturally21:38
Bovinitythey can do without21:38
nathanypaulproteus: almost none of these patches apply... ugh21:38
paulproteusnathany, Yeah, they're probably all unnecessary for the latest version anyway.21:38
Bovinityparoneayea: still waiting on your staff page details. i can photograph you if you need a picture.21:42
paroneayeaBovinity: sure, why don't we do that21:42
nathanydpkg-genchanges: not including original source code in upload21:44
nathanydpkg-buildpackage: binary and diff upload (original source NOT included)21:44
nathanydpkg-buildpackage: warning: Failed to sign .dsc and .changes file21:44
paulproteusFirst warning: Because the original tarball isn't named .orig.tar.gz21:44
paulproteusSecond warning: Same reason21:44
nathanyshould i have a deb, though?21:44
paulproteusIn ../*deb21:45
nathanyfound it21:45
paulproteusThird warning: You don't have the private key of the Debian dude who maintains it.21:45
nathanygot it21:45
nathanyi didn't see the deb and assumed it'd failed (even though those were warnings)21:45
nathanywhich seemed weird21:45
* paulproteus nods21:46
nathanypaulproteus: should i rev the version number so i get a sane version # in the deb i generate?21:46
paulproteusYa, "dch -i" is a good tool for that.21:46
paulproteusOr edit debian/changelog by hand, but that's bad news.21:46
paulproteusdch is in the devscripts package.21:46
nathanyif i just change the header line that'll do it?21:47
paulproteusUm, yes, but that's weird.21:47
paulproteusCreate a new changelog entry with your name and the version number you want.21:47
paulproteusUse dch for that.21:47
nathanythis is going to be the jankiest package ever21:48
paulproteusJank Jank Revolution.21:49
nathanypaulproteus: is there a dry-run mode for installing a deb?21:49
paulproteusI'm a frayed knot.21:49
nathanytrying to decide how risky it is to install this21:49
paulproteusEh, go ahead. (-:21:51
paulproteusIf it builds, ship it.21:51
nathanypaulproteus: just backing-up our tracker first :)21:51
paulproteusI wouldn't worry about the data.21:51
paulproteusI'd look for a copy of the .deb I used to install this version.21:51
* nathany crosses his fingers21:53
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nkinkadegreg-g: Were you going to delete /Extend_Metadata?21:55
* greg-g looks21:55
nkinkadeIt's when you noticed that wiki error yesterday.21:55
nkinkadeI guess you can't view the page, even.21:55
greg-gahh, right, I don't think I'm going to delete that, now that I can see it :)21:56
paulproteuspyrak, Is dinner Sat or Sun?21:59
nathanypaulproteus: thanks for your help!22:00
paulproteusnathany, Sure thing. (-:22:00
pyrakpaulproteus, working it out22:01
pyrakwhich works better for you?22:02
paulproteusCool. I think I prefer Sat.22:02
pyraki think i do also22:02
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paroneayeawhere is this farewell thingy we're going to?22:25
paroneayeaand it runs till... 6:30?22:25
* paroneayea suspects there was talk on the cc-sf mailing list that he is not on ;p22:26
Bovinityzebulon i believe22:29
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paroneayeaoops, that was not meant for here but for a person asking about noisebridge22:29
paroneayeathx Bovinity22:29
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pyrakBovinity, nkinkade nathany ^22:39
Bovinitypyrak: nice22:39
nkinkadepyrak: Very pretty.  I'm feeling good about again.22:40
Bovinitypyrak: minor; change type color to #33322:40
nkinkadeI was giving up this morning.22:40
Bovinitypyrak: and 10px left padding on the h2 so it cleanly lines up with the body copy. :)22:40
pyrakBovinity, thats 10px left?22:41
pyrakoh, sry22:41
* pyrak reads22:41
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Bovinitypyrak: padding-left: 10px; ya22:41
nkinkadeMy display is only 800px tall and it just misses all fitting in the viewable area.  Might be nice to tuck and trim just a bit so that it could possibly fit in the display of a 1024x768 display without scrolling.22:42
Bovinitypyrak: actually, scratch that.22:43
greg-gpyrak: why is the google image search only limited to "commercial reuse with modification" instead of just "reuse"?  Just curious, it looks good otherwise22:43
pyrakBovinity, roger.  scratching22:43
greg-gI know, probably not the type of feedback you were looking for :)22:43
pyrakgreg-g, you alter the comm/deriv choices on our form on the top22:43
greg-gpyrak: AH!22:44
pyrakit's extremely confusing that with google you get a prominent form from them also22:44
pyrakthat would be solved by us sucking it up and doing all this through API's22:44
pyrakbut that would be a whole other code base22:44
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greg-gheh, "You like "flower" ? Here is some of the best "flower" on jamendo."22:46
nathanypyrak: i like it22:47
nkinkadeAnd how does it appear on Safari or IE with the -moz-border-radius stuff?22:47
pyraki can check now22:47
pyrakfirst, opera:22:47
nkinkadeBut we should change flower to flour.22:47
Bovinitypyrak: the video is kinda bugged out in safari22:47
pyrakyeah, in opera too22:47
Bovinityotherwise looks fine22:48
pyrakopera is borked22:48
JED3I've got staging all set up on the free-accounts22:48
nathanyJED3: good start; I think we may decide to keep first/last name optional initially to streamline the form22:48
JED3and sent out a quick explanatory email to webmaster about it22:49
nathanyalso it'd be nice (eventually) to pre-populate promo code from a query string variable22:49
nathanybut i can open a bug re: that22:49
nathany(that way we can have a link in the email)22:49
JED3nathany: the prepop is there22:49
nathanyoh cool!22:49
JED3same with the renew22:50
pyrakyeah, doesn't look too bad without the rounded corners22:51
pyrakchecking ie's22:51
JED3test codes are "aaaaaaaa" through "ZZZZZZZZ"22:51
JED3I still need to write the script and build and email method for the promo code generation22:53
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Bovinitypyrak: looks fine in webkit now22:54
pyraklooks fine in ie822:54
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pyraki kinda want to put rounded corners around the video embed also22:55
paroneayeapyrak that's a bit harder prolly22:56
Bovinityunfortunately you can't round that, nor have a pony22:56
pyrakBovinity, shut up and eat your pony22:56
Bovinitywould probably look silly being inside a rounded box anyway22:56
Bovinityyum, that's good pony22:57
pyrakdammit, i can't find it22:57
pyrakits a thingpart22:57
pyrakanyway, take my word for it: it's funny.  and the punchline is "shut up and eat your pony"22:59
pyrakadd /thingpart.html22:59
Bovinityi'm sure there's a toothpaste for dinner, or cyanide and happiness regarding the pony eating topic.23:00
pyrakoh dear.  just added ":w" to the end of my commit message because i thought i was still in vim :/23:02
paroneayeathe extent of my vim skills is mostly search, navigation, editing, write and quit23:03
pyrakand i just barely got over that learning curve23:04
pyraki think i'm still faster with gedit23:04
Bovinitythat's good to hear23:05
pyrakbut not by much23:05
paroneayeaI often forget that I'm not in emacs while in firefox23:06
paroneayeaand C-n to scroll down into a million new windows23:06
Bovinitypyrak: even though i haven't worked on it in almost a decade, i still feel fuzzy when people talk about gedit.23:06
paroneayeaor C-p into a print window to scroll up :\23:06
paroneayeaBovinity: you worked on gedit?  Neat23:06
Bovinityparoneayea: original author, long long ago23:07
greg-gBovinity: no kidding? nice.23:07
pyrakBovinity, woah, neat23:07
greg-glook at that, right there in the credits23:08
pyrakexcept without the trailing "s" in your last name?23:14
pyrakyou should file a bug23:15
paulproteusHumorously, I just an email to bugmaster at
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Bovinityholy crap, flickr is using the newer BY icon23:38
ianwellerwhat font does creative commons use for their logo font?23:39
Bovinityakzidenz grotesk23:39
ianwellerthanks :)23:39
paulproteusBovinity, Whoa.23:43
paulproteusThat wasn't true ca. 1w ago.23:43
Bovinitypaulproteus: what wasn't?23:44
paulproteusI mean, iirc, Flickr was using the older BY icon a week ago.23:44

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