Thursday, 2009-04-02

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Zelutgreg-g: all ur credit card r belong 2 me00:32
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greg-ghey, at least they read my blog posts :)00:37
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isforinsectspaulproteus:  ping18:10
isforinsectsI need some datum real-fast: what are the daily unique visitors to the CC site?18:11
Bovinityhttp://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/Mastering-Cat/18:17
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kilpshi there - can i talk to anyone here about gsoc ideas?18:43
paulproteuskilps, Yes!18:45
paulproteusThe primary mentor just stepped out for an hour but I might be some use.18:45
paulproteusisforinsects, pong18:45
paulproteusisforinsects, Hmm, I don't know, but let me see if our Google Analytics knows.18:45
kilpspaul proteus thanks - im thinking of applying to develop a all round wordpress plugin - building on the medai manager idea, but also supporting licencing an entire blog or individual posts - do you think there is room for this?18:46
paulproteusThere is already WpLicense - have you seen that?18:46
kilpsyes i have - but as far as i can tell it is rather limiting in just allowing licencing the whole blog (unless i missed something). im interested in allowing control at all three lessons: whole blog, individual posts, media items18:48
paulproteusAh, right.18:51
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kilpsive seen in the mailing list that others are applying for this - would it still be worth while for me to do so aswell?18:52
paulproteusLet me see.18:54
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paulproteusWe do already have two proposals on the topic, one of which looks fairly good.19:00
paulproteusI'd say that you ought to apply with a different idea unless you have a really good background for doing this.19:01
kilpsok yes thanks i was starting to think that19:01
paulproteusIt's still possible to outcompete the one that looks good, but it does look good right now.19:01
kilpsim just looking at the whole liblicence project - is someone working on a php library for liblicence at the moment?19:01
paulproteusNo one has submitted a proposal for that, and no CC staff time is dedicated to doing that either.19:02
kilpsok im just interested because i see its an issue when looking at the wordpress media plugin idea - id be interested in this but am just looking at it from a technical perspective - do you think it has potential?19:03
paulproteusI don't understand your question.19:05
paulproteusI think that it is a good project for a GSoC student to do.19:05
paulproteusI think technically it has enough challenges, and that it is clearly useful.19:06
kilpsok thanks that answers the question19:06
paulproteusCool.19:06
kilpsthe only thing im concernaed about is my ability (i taught myself php so have gaps in my knowledge) - for now im just looking at how i might go about it19:07
paulproteusI think that given that we have a good proposal for that particular project, we'd probably take the person with more PHP and WordPress coding experience.19:10
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kilpsare you refering to the media manager project? i completely understand that - although i do have wordpress development experience i am pretty sure that there are others who could do far better19:17
paulproteusYup, I'm talking about the media manager project.19:18
kilpsid also rather do something more interesting/different/useful so if someone else is working on that already ill look at something different19:18
kilpsok19:18
paulproteusCool, I hope you find a project that you can work on. Especially if it's for us, but even if not!19:18
kilpsjust to make sure that i am getting this idea with liblicence right - to make it similar enough to the current library a php version would basically have to be able to read and write licence data to any of the currrently supported files with their perfered meta data type?19:19
paulproteusThere are two ways to go about that.19:20
paulproteusOne is to rewrite liblicense from scratch in PHP, which sounds like what you're saying.19:20
paulproteusAnother is just to write PHP bindings to the existing C library.19:20
paulproteusI think we'd prefer the second option.19:20
kilpsok yes i was thinking of the first19:20
kilpsbut the second makes far more sense - ill take a look at that now19:21
kilpsjust surely the second would require the library to installed by the server administrator? which would be tricky for those who are limited by hosting companies?19:21
paulproteusOh, yes, that's probably true. )-:19:22
paulproteusMaybe PHP has dlopen() that users can use, though?19:22
Bovinityit's probably turne off for security sake19:22
paulproteusIt'd be pretty cool to be able to add shared libraries at runtime to a shared web server.19:22
kilpsi havnt done anything like that before - busy looking it all up - but id guess that that would be restricted.19:23
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paulproteusI agree, yeah.19:24
kilpsalso that would add complexity for the user - particularly self taughts like me ;) - personally i really like it when i can just include one php file, create an object and use its methods - this would make it much more complex than that19:25
paulproteusYes, agreed!19:26
paulproteusIf it's possible to have many-to-most of the liblicense features in pure PHP, that would probably be quite useful.19:26
paulproteusSame thing with C#, actually.19:26
kilpsok so that would mean implimenting (preferably existing) php libraries for all the different forms of meta data (http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Liblicense/Metadata_Table)19:28
kilpsdo you know if the form in which the cc data is stored with liblicience is documented anywhere? im struggling to find it without resorting to the source code...19:28
paulproteusYeah - it's all documented on the page on the CC Wiki about each file format.19:29
paulproteusLet me find you a better link.19:29
paulproteushttp://wiki.creativecommons.org/Embedding19:29
kilpsthanks19:29
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nkinkadenathany: Do we have any strict policy on adding languages to Pootle?20:04
nkinkadeSomeone just wrote in about translating to Russian.  There is Russian for ccPublisher, but not for cc_org.20:05
nkinkadeI was thinking that it couldn't hurt to have someone translate, as long as they understood that it would have to be accepted by the jurisdiction down the road.20:05
kilpspaulproteus are you still around?20:15
Bovinityhe and nathany are AFK20:15
kilpsok thanks is there anyone around i can chat to about gsoc?20:16
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nathanynkinkade: i wouldn't call it a strict policy but we've been hesitant to do so w/o an affiliate20:29
nathanykilps: i can try and answer questions for you re: gsoc20:29
kilpsthanks nathany - did you follow the proposal i was discussing with paulproteus earlier? otherwise i can give a quick overview20:30
nathanyno, i just got back into the office20:30
kilpsok sure - basically my proposal is a php implimentation of liblicense (not a binding) - im busy putting together my proposal. is it sufficient to simply explain the final product and how i intend going about implimenting it?20:32
nathanykilps: yeah, i think so; what else would you include beyond what you want to do and how you'll do it? :)20:32
kilpsok fair enough - just trying to figure out into how much detail i should go :)20:33
kilpsthink ive got everything i need though20:33
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nkinkadepaulproteus: How is it that a PO file in Pootle would become out of date with something in the i18n repository?20:44
paulproteusnkinkade, Because of a failure in the pre-commit hook, which I don't really understand how it could happen. )-:20:45
paulproteusNow that I'm back at my desk I'll investigate.20:45
nkinkadeGot this: svn: Commit failed (details follow): svn: File '/i18n/trunk/po/de/cc_org.po' is out of date20:45
nkinkadeWhen I tried to commit any DE changes.20:45
paulproteusOh, I see.20:45
paulproteusThat's easy to have happen.20:45
paulproteus(note that I already had a shell open to translate.creativecommons.org when I wrote I'd investigate)20:46
nkinkadeWho might have been editing the file in the repo?20:46
paulproteusIf some human updates po/de/cc_org.po and doesn't ssh to Pootle, then ..20:46
paulproteus... I don't know, svn log?20:46
nkinkadeThere's only some stuff about 3 weeks old.20:46
nkinkadeIt must have been that, though.20:46
nkinkadepaulproteus: So is the simple answer to just become pootle, svn up  that dir, then restart Pootle, then commit?20:47
paulproteusYup.20:47
paulproteusEr, wait.20:47
paulproteus"then commit" - do you mean, from the Pootle UI?20:47
nkinkadeYeah.20:47
paulproteusSo long as you commit from the Pootle UI, I agree.20:47
nkinkadeThat's what I meant.  These days I'll do everything through the Pootle UI.20:48
paulproteusCool.20:48
nkinkade... and leave the background stuff to the commit hooks.20:48
paulproteus"One of these days" we can make things work even outside of the UI.20:48
nkinkadeThe only things I may do locally would be to update the cc-style PO files.20:48
paulproteusnkinkade, Actually, do me a favor20:48
nkinkadeSure.20:48
paulproteusLet me do the "commit" action from inside Pootle.20:48
paulproteusThis is a good way for me to test the pre-commit hooks.20:48
nkinkadeSure.  I'll let you know in a second.20:48
paulproteusSo just ping me when you're ready to tell me, "Commit de".20:49
paulproteusw00t.20:49
nkinkadepaulproteus: Did you already svn up the i18n/trunk/po/de/?20:49
nkinkadeI just tried and it simply said: At revision 12023.20:50
paulproteusI've done nothing of the sort.20:50
paulproteusI... think.20:50
* paulproteus double-checks in his head20:50
nkinkadeSeems there was nothing to update to.20:50
paulproteusYeah, I'm pretty sure I haven't.20:50
nkinkadeIf you did, you would have had to do it in the past 5 minutes.20:50
paulproteusThen no.20:50
nkinkadeSo then I'm confused about the svn error that Pootle spit up.20:50
paulproteusWeird. Perhaps it's because the local dir was at a previous revision but where that previous revision had no changes to de/?20:51
paulproteusBut I thought svn just skipped the "Out of date" messages in that case.20:51
paulproteusSo I don't think that's actually a real reason, hmm.20:51
isforinsectspaulproteus: oi20:52
paulproteusOh yeah.20:52
paulproteusI promised you stats.20:52
paulproteusYou still want 'em?20:52
isforinsectseven rough numbers would be nice, yeah20:53
paulproteusisforinsects, Digging it up now, one sec.21:00
paulproteusEr, got distracted by http://www.nin.com/pub/strobelight/21:05
paulproteusGoogle Analytics seems to report to us that in the last week of March, we had ca. 389K visits, and 355K "absolute unique visitors". Also, FWIW, we're 50% IE, 39% Fx, and 6% Safari, and 2% Chrome and Opera each.21:10
paulproteusYou wanted per-month? Multiplying the second number by four is probably close to correct, but it's iffy given that some might be repeat in a month who aren't repeat in a week.21:11
paulproteusisforinsects, ^^21:12
nkinkadepaulproteus: nathany: Will you both be around and about tomorrow?  I was thinking to maybe try to get a5 upgraded to Lenny.21:22
paulproteusYes.21:22
paulproteusI may take a long-ish lunch at noon, and then there's the all-staff meeting at two.21:23
paulproteusSo something like 10am Pacific I can promise to be interactively available.21:23
nkinkadeThat sounds like a good time.21:23
nkinkadeI'll tentatively plan on it and catch up with you tomorrow.21:23
paulproteusCool.21:23
paulproteusI made a note on my planner.21:24
nathanynkinkade (paulproteus): I'm planning to be off tomorrow; what about the same time on Tuesday?21:25
paulproteus(That works too)21:25
nkinkadenathany: Tuesday will work as well.  I'd like for you to be available just in case something happens to cc.engine.21:26
nkinkadeAnd for a7 as well.21:26
nkinkadeMaybe we can do a7 next week sometime too.21:26
nathanynkinkade: right; have we done a7 yet?21:26
nkinkadea5 and a7 are the only two remaining.21:26
nathanygot it21:26
nathanynkinkade: yeah, i figured that's why you were asking me (wrt cc.engine)21:27
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isforinsectspaulproteus: thanks dood21:39
paulproteusHow does that compare to what you were expecting, and what do you plan to use it for?21:40
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hdworakhi21:53
hdworakankitg: long time no see :)21:54
hdworakankitg: how's it going? are you applying for GSoC 2009? :)21:54
ankitghi hdworak21:54
ankitghdworak: the project I'd *love* to do is in an organization with a just 1 (at most 2 slots) and there are at least 10 applicants ... so I doubt I'll get it ..21:55
hdworakdo you mind if I ask which org is it? :)21:56
hdworakout of sheer curiosity21:56
ankitgBerkman Center21:56
hdworakhaven't heard about this one, are they new to GSoC?21:57
ankitgyep21:57
ankitgfirst year21:57
hdworak:)21:57
hdworakwhat do they do? graphics? networking? ...?21:58
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ankitgthe project I am looking at involves semantic web, clustering and visualization ...21:59
hdworaksounds very interesting to me :)22:00
hdworakankitg: well, you succeeded in applying to GSoC last year, there's no reason why you wouldn't make it this time22:01
hdworakankitg: so you're not applying to cc, are you?22:02
hdworakI'm asking, 'cause I know it would be valuable to continue your last year project22:02
hdworakand I thought you could propose that22:02
ankitghaven't had much time to write down a good proposal ... if I don't make it in and have spare time, I can always work on it 'outside of GSoC' ...22:03
hdworaknathany, paulproteus: is anyone willing to pick this (= log analysis) up as their GSoC 2009 project?22:04
paulproteusNo one's proposed it.22:05
hdworaknathany, paulproteus: are you, as cc, still interested in it?22:05
paulproteusYeah, if there's a good application, we're definitely still interested in pursuing it.22:05
nathanywhat he said22:05
hdworak'cause, in accordance with our previous discussions, I'd be more than happy to pick this up, if you say it is still relevant22:06
paulproteusI'd say propose it, and make it a good proposal.22:06
hdworakankitg: would it be possible to see the details of your proposal (from the previous year) in order to write the one for this year?22:07
paulproteusWe don't have a whole lot of excellent proposals yet (though we have a couple), and I'd love it if we had another excellent proposal. (-:22:08
ankitghdworak: let me dig it up ...22:08
hdworakankitg: I would be very grateful, that would make me ask less questions to the crew :)22:08
hdworakpaulproteus: as far as I could tell from the IRC logs, lots of ppl concentrate on WP plug-ins, don't they?22:09
paulproteusYup.22:10
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hdworakpaulproteus: but then again, I haven't seen the log tool in the list of "open challenges" at your wiki, so this is why I've asked you whether it's still relevant22:11
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paulproteusAnd this is why we answer Yes.22:11
paulproteusEr, someone abruptly unplugged hdworak.22:11
paulproteusSpooky GSoC competition at a distance.22:11
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ankitgit wasn't me!22:13
SertmannWhen reusing CC-attribution 1.0 licensed content in print, is it enough to write where a list of contributers can be found online, or do you have to provide names and aliases in a reference section in your publication?22:14
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hdworakwhoa, a timeout!22:17
nathanySertmann: "it depends"22:25
nathanyactually i take that back22:26
nathanywith 1.0 you probably need to list contributors22:26
hdworakankitg: do you think you'll be able to find that proposal?22:27
hdworakI'm not asking to dig through 100 CDs :)22:27
Sertmannnathany... dammit I don22:32
Sertmann't like "probably" :)22:32
Sertmann"reasonable to the means of the media" is damn vague...22:32
nathanySertmann: how would you attribute a non CC licensed work you cited?22:33
nathanykeep in mind we don't do legal advice or opinions (and IANAL)22:33
Sertmannno no, I just need some advice, and understand the IANAL deal...22:34
ankitghdworak: it isn't where I thot it ought to be ... maybe the CC folks have a copy from the last time?22:34
Sertmannbut i ran around the wiki and forums, and couldn't find any clear cut answer to this...22:34
nathanythat phrase ("reasonable means") typically has been interpreted to mean you give attribution in the same place you would for other things; ie, the credits of a movie would be the appropriate place for film22:34
nathanySertmann: unfortunately the 1.0 license doesn't have the "group attribution" clause that allows creators to say "attribute reuse to this group (or collective)"22:35
Sertmannwell, that's not unfortunate in this case, for me anyway...22:36
hdworakankitg: yes, paul\proteus had it, thanks for looking for it though, I appreciate that22:37
hdworakankitg: and how's your living these days, buddy? still univ. and projects?22:38
ankitghdworak: you are tempting me to reapply!22:38
hdworakankitg: remember when I've told you that I'm taking a motorcycle course? :) nowadays I can drive a truck, too22:39
hdworakankitg: awesome!22:39
SertmannSo, by your best guestimate, where in this case someone publising wikitravel content (which is licensed under CC-attribution 1.0) and sells printed guides, are (probably) required to attribute all contributers of the content?22:39
ankitghdworak: could you send me a copy of my proposal =P22:39
Sertmannand not just state that a list of contributers can be found at http:/wikitravel.org/somewhere?22:40
hdworakankitg: sure, man22:41
* hdworak send the link on priv22:41
hdworak"sends" even!22:41
ankitghdworak: got it, thanks ...22:42
ankitghdworak: will work with you on this, either way ...22:42
hdworakthat's superb22:43
hdworakI'm gonna have a look at the work you've done and things you've written on CC Web site about the project22:43
hdworakplus your proposal, of course22:43
ankitgand I am going to go back on working on school project ... 6:43 am still in uni ... yay!22:45
hdworakLOL22:46
hdworaknow that's crazy22:46
hdworak46 mins past the midnight here22:47
nathanySertmann: I'm not sure... there are examples of people selling printed guides so you could look at what they do.22:50
nathanymy guess would be that you should list contributors, but it's just that, a complete guess22:50
Sertmanner.. im not the seller, im the contributer (and admin) from wikitravel ;)22:57
Sertmannbut thanks for the opinion, been kinda surprised by this, I had always been under the impression that CC was fairly well organised, oh well, guess life would be boring without surprises.23:00
paulproteusYeah, CC by-sa 1.0 is sort of tragic this way. )-:23:10
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paulproteusroflnathan ?23:13
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paulproteusnkinkade, syn23:28
paulproteusnkinkade, Did you prepare de so it's ready for my committing test?23:28
paulproteusRight, there was nothing to commit/update.23:32
paulproteusStrange.23:32
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nkinkadepaulproteus: Hey.23:42
nkinkadeSorry, earlier I tried the svn up and nothing was updated so I just tried the commit again from Pootle and strangely it worked.23:43
nkinkadeThen I went about doing what I needed to do.23:43
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paulproteusYup. I just made a note in the bug about the fact that it only appears to work. )-:23:44
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hdworakpaulproteus: who's in charge of http://code.creativecommons.org/svnroot/stats/ now?23:48
hdworakI see it's not moved to git, so I thought it might be inactive for the time being23:48
hdworakI can't see the dates in the Web SVN preview23:49
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paulproteushdworak, It's active, just not super active, and it's maintained (sloppily) by me.23:51
paulproteusnkinkade, I'm writing up a response to your email about rebase. Summary: Yay.23:51
hdworakthanks23:51
nkinkadepaulproteus: Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised when git-rebase --onto worked without error and in all of 5 seconds.23:52
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