Thursday, 2009-04-02

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Zelutgreg-g: all ur credit card r belong 2 me00:32
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greg-ghey, at least they read my blog posts :)00:37
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isforinsectspaulproteus:  ping18:10
isforinsectsI need some datum real-fast: what are the daily unique visitors to the CC site?18:11
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kilpshi there - can i talk to anyone here about gsoc ideas?18:43
paulproteuskilps, Yes!18:45
paulproteusThe primary mentor just stepped out for an hour but I might be some use.18:45
paulproteusisforinsects, pong18:45
paulproteusisforinsects, Hmm, I don't know, but let me see if our Google Analytics knows.18:45
kilpspaul proteus thanks - im thinking of applying to develop a all round wordpress plugin - building on the medai manager idea, but also supporting licencing an entire blog or individual posts - do you think there is room for this?18:46
paulproteusThere is already WpLicense - have you seen that?18:46
kilpsyes i have - but as far as i can tell it is rather limiting in just allowing licencing the whole blog (unless i missed something). im interested in allowing control at all three lessons: whole blog, individual posts, media items18:48
paulproteusAh, right.18:51
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kilpsive seen in the mailing list that others are applying for this - would it still be worth while for me to do so aswell?18:52
paulproteusLet me see.18:54
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paulproteusWe do already have two proposals on the topic, one of which looks fairly good.19:00
paulproteusI'd say that you ought to apply with a different idea unless you have a really good background for doing this.19:01
kilpsok yes thanks i was starting to think that19:01
paulproteusIt's still possible to outcompete the one that looks good, but it does look good right now.19:01
kilpsim just looking at the whole liblicence project - is someone working on a php library for liblicence at the moment?19:01
paulproteusNo one has submitted a proposal for that, and no CC staff time is dedicated to doing that either.19:02
kilpsok im just interested because i see its an issue when looking at the wordpress media plugin idea - id be interested in this but am just looking at it from a technical perspective - do you think it has potential?19:03
paulproteusI don't understand your question.19:05
paulproteusI think that it is a good project for a GSoC student to do.19:05
paulproteusI think technically it has enough challenges, and that it is clearly useful.19:06
kilpsok thanks that answers the question19:06
kilpsthe only thing im concernaed about is my ability (i taught myself php so have gaps in my knowledge) - for now im just looking at how i might go about it19:07
paulproteusI think that given that we have a good proposal for that particular project, we'd probably take the person with more PHP and WordPress coding experience.19:10
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kilpsare you refering to the media manager project? i completely understand that - although i do have wordpress development experience i am pretty sure that there are others who could do far better19:17
paulproteusYup, I'm talking about the media manager project.19:18
kilpsid also rather do something more interesting/different/useful so if someone else is working on that already ill look at something different19:18
paulproteusCool, I hope you find a project that you can work on. Especially if it's for us, but even if not!19:18
kilpsjust to make sure that i am getting this idea with liblicence right - to make it similar enough to the current library a php version would basically have to be able to read and write licence data to any of the currrently supported files with their perfered meta data type?19:19
paulproteusThere are two ways to go about that.19:20
paulproteusOne is to rewrite liblicense from scratch in PHP, which sounds like what you're saying.19:20
paulproteusAnother is just to write PHP bindings to the existing C library.19:20
paulproteusI think we'd prefer the second option.19:20
kilpsok yes i was thinking of the first19:20
kilpsbut the second makes far more sense - ill take a look at that now19:21
kilpsjust surely the second would require the library to installed by the server administrator? which would be tricky for those who are limited by hosting companies?19:21
paulproteusOh, yes, that's probably true. )-:19:22
paulproteusMaybe PHP has dlopen() that users can use, though?19:22
Bovinityit's probably turne off for security sake19:22
paulproteusIt'd be pretty cool to be able to add shared libraries at runtime to a shared web server.19:22
kilpsi havnt done anything like that before - busy looking it all up - but id guess that that would be restricted.19:23
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paulproteusI agree, yeah.19:24
kilpsalso that would add complexity for the user - particularly self taughts like me ;) - personally i really like it when i can just include one php file, create an object and use its methods - this would make it much more complex than that19:25
paulproteusYes, agreed!19:26
paulproteusIf it's possible to have many-to-most of the liblicense features in pure PHP, that would probably be quite useful.19:26
paulproteusSame thing with C#, actually.19:26
kilpsok so that would mean implimenting (preferably existing) php libraries for all the different forms of meta data (
kilpsdo you know if the form in which the cc data is stored with liblicience is documented anywhere? im struggling to find it without resorting to the source code...19:28
paulproteusYeah - it's all documented on the page on the CC Wiki about each file format.19:29
paulproteusLet me find you a better link.19:29
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nkinkadenathany: Do we have any strict policy on adding languages to Pootle?20:04
nkinkadeSomeone just wrote in about translating to Russian.  There is Russian for ccPublisher, but not for cc_org.20:05
nkinkadeI was thinking that it couldn't hurt to have someone translate, as long as they understood that it would have to be accepted by the jurisdiction down the road.20:05
kilpspaulproteus are you still around?20:15
Bovinityhe and nathany are AFK20:15
kilpsok thanks is there anyone around i can chat to about gsoc?20:16
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nathanynkinkade: i wouldn't call it a strict policy but we've been hesitant to do so w/o an affiliate20:29
nathanykilps: i can try and answer questions for you re: gsoc20:29
kilpsthanks nathany - did you follow the proposal i was discussing with paulproteus earlier? otherwise i can give a quick overview20:30
nathanyno, i just got back into the office20:30
kilpsok sure - basically my proposal is a php implimentation of liblicense (not a binding) - im busy putting together my proposal. is it sufficient to simply explain the final product and how i intend going about implimenting it?20:32
nathanykilps: yeah, i think so; what else would you include beyond what you want to do and how you'll do it? :)20:32
kilpsok fair enough - just trying to figure out into how much detail i should go :)20:33
kilpsthink ive got everything i need though20:33
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nkinkadepaulproteus: How is it that a PO file in Pootle would become out of date with something in the i18n repository?20:44
paulproteusnkinkade, Because of a failure in the pre-commit hook, which I don't really understand how it could happen. )-:20:45
paulproteusNow that I'm back at my desk I'll investigate.20:45
nkinkadeGot this: svn: Commit failed (details follow): svn: File '/i18n/trunk/po/de/cc_org.po' is out of date20:45
nkinkadeWhen I tried to commit any DE changes.20:45
paulproteusOh, I see.20:45
paulproteusThat's easy to have happen.20:45
paulproteus(note that I already had a shell open to when I wrote I'd investigate)20:46
nkinkadeWho might have been editing the file in the repo?20:46
paulproteusIf some human updates po/de/cc_org.po and doesn't ssh to Pootle, then ..20:46
paulproteus... I don't know, svn log?20:46
nkinkadeThere's only some stuff about 3 weeks old.20:46
nkinkadeIt must have been that, though.20:46
nkinkadepaulproteus: So is the simple answer to just become pootle, svn up  that dir, then restart Pootle, then commit?20:47
paulproteusEr, wait.20:47
paulproteus"then commit" - do you mean, from the Pootle UI?20:47
paulproteusSo long as you commit from the Pootle UI, I agree.20:47
nkinkadeThat's what I meant.  These days I'll do everything through the Pootle UI.20:48
nkinkade... and leave the background stuff to the commit hooks.20:48
paulproteus"One of these days" we can make things work even outside of the UI.20:48
nkinkadeThe only things I may do locally would be to update the cc-style PO files.20:48
paulproteusnkinkade, Actually, do me a favor20:48
paulproteusLet me do the "commit" action from inside Pootle.20:48
paulproteusThis is a good way for me to test the pre-commit hooks.20:48
nkinkadeSure.  I'll let you know in a second.20:48
paulproteusSo just ping me when you're ready to tell me, "Commit de".20:49
nkinkadepaulproteus: Did you already svn up the i18n/trunk/po/de/?20:49
nkinkadeI just tried and it simply said: At revision 12023.20:50
paulproteusI've done nothing of the sort.20:50
paulproteusI... think.20:50
* paulproteus double-checks in his head20:50
nkinkadeSeems there was nothing to update to.20:50
paulproteusYeah, I'm pretty sure I haven't.20:50
nkinkadeIf you did, you would have had to do it in the past 5 minutes.20:50
paulproteusThen no.20:50
nkinkadeSo then I'm confused about the svn error that Pootle spit up.20:50
paulproteusWeird. Perhaps it's because the local dir was at a previous revision but where that previous revision had no changes to de/?20:51
paulproteusBut I thought svn just skipped the "Out of date" messages in that case.20:51
paulproteusSo I don't think that's actually a real reason, hmm.20:51
isforinsectspaulproteus: oi20:52
paulproteusOh yeah.20:52
paulproteusI promised you stats.20:52
paulproteusYou still want 'em?20:52
isforinsectseven rough numbers would be nice, yeah20:53
paulproteusisforinsects, Digging it up now, one sec.21:00
paulproteusEr, got distracted by
paulproteusGoogle Analytics seems to report to us that in the last week of March, we had ca. 389K visits, and 355K "absolute unique visitors". Also, FWIW, we're 50% IE, 39% Fx, and 6% Safari, and 2% Chrome and Opera each.21:10
paulproteusYou wanted per-month? Multiplying the second number by four is probably close to correct, but it's iffy given that some might be repeat in a month who aren't repeat in a week.21:11
paulproteusisforinsects, ^^21:12
nkinkadepaulproteus: nathany: Will you both be around and about tomorrow?  I was thinking to maybe try to get a5 upgraded to Lenny.21:22
paulproteusI may take a long-ish lunch at noon, and then there's the all-staff meeting at two.21:23
paulproteusSo something like 10am Pacific I can promise to be interactively available.21:23
nkinkadeThat sounds like a good time.21:23
nkinkadeI'll tentatively plan on it and catch up with you tomorrow.21:23
paulproteusI made a note on my planner.21:24
nathanynkinkade (paulproteus): I'm planning to be off tomorrow; what about the same time on Tuesday?21:25
paulproteus(That works too)21:25
nkinkadenathany: Tuesday will work as well.  I'd like for you to be available just in case something happens to cc.engine.21:26
nkinkadeAnd for a7 as well.21:26
nkinkadeMaybe we can do a7 next week sometime too.21:26
nathanynkinkade: right; have we done a7 yet?21:26
nkinkadea5 and a7 are the only two remaining.21:26
nathanygot it21:26
nathanynkinkade: yeah, i figured that's why you were asking me (wrt cc.engine)21:27
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isforinsectspaulproteus: thanks dood21:39
paulproteusHow does that compare to what you were expecting, and what do you plan to use it for?21:40
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hdworakankitg: long time no see :)21:54
hdworakankitg: how's it going? are you applying for GSoC 2009? :)21:54
ankitghi hdworak21:54
ankitghdworak: the project I'd *love* to do is in an organization with a just 1 (at most 2 slots) and there are at least 10 applicants ... so I doubt I'll get it ..21:55
hdworakdo you mind if I ask which org is it? :)21:56
hdworakout of sheer curiosity21:56
ankitgBerkman Center21:56
hdworakhaven't heard about this one, are they new to GSoC?21:57
ankitgfirst year21:57
hdworakwhat do they do? graphics? networking? ...?21:58
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ankitgthe project I am looking at involves semantic web, clustering and visualization ...21:59
hdworaksounds very interesting to me :)22:00
hdworakankitg: well, you succeeded in applying to GSoC last year, there's no reason why you wouldn't make it this time22:01
hdworakankitg: so you're not applying to cc, are you?22:02
hdworakI'm asking, 'cause I know it would be valuable to continue your last year project22:02
hdworakand I thought you could propose that22:02
ankitghaven't had much time to write down a good proposal ... if I don't make it in and have spare time, I can always work on it 'outside of GSoC' ...22:03
hdworaknathany, paulproteus: is anyone willing to pick this (= log analysis) up as their GSoC 2009 project?22:04
paulproteusNo one's proposed it.22:05
hdworaknathany, paulproteus: are you, as cc, still interested in it?22:05
paulproteusYeah, if there's a good application, we're definitely still interested in pursuing it.22:05
nathanywhat he said22:05
hdworak'cause, in accordance with our previous discussions, I'd be more than happy to pick this up, if you say it is still relevant22:06
paulproteusI'd say propose it, and make it a good proposal.22:06
hdworakankitg: would it be possible to see the details of your proposal (from the previous year) in order to write the one for this year?22:07
paulproteusWe don't have a whole lot of excellent proposals yet (though we have a couple), and I'd love it if we had another excellent proposal. (-:22:08
ankitghdworak: let me dig it up ...22:08
hdworakankitg: I would be very grateful, that would make me ask less questions to the crew :)22:08
hdworakpaulproteus: as far as I could tell from the IRC logs, lots of ppl concentrate on WP plug-ins, don't they?22:09
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hdworakpaulproteus: but then again, I haven't seen the log tool in the list of "open challenges" at your wiki, so this is why I've asked you whether it's still relevant22:11
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paulproteusAnd this is why we answer Yes.22:11
paulproteusEr, someone abruptly unplugged hdworak.22:11
paulproteusSpooky GSoC competition at a distance.22:11
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ankitgit wasn't me!22:13
SertmannWhen reusing CC-attribution 1.0 licensed content in print, is it enough to write where a list of contributers can be found online, or do you have to provide names and aliases in a reference section in your publication?22:14
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hdworakwhoa, a timeout!22:17
nathanySertmann: "it depends"22:25
nathanyactually i take that back22:26
nathanywith 1.0 you probably need to list contributors22:26
hdworakankitg: do you think you'll be able to find that proposal?22:27
hdworakI'm not asking to dig through 100 CDs :)22:27
Sertmannnathany... dammit I don22:32
Sertmann't like "probably" :)22:32
Sertmann"reasonable to the means of the media" is damn vague...22:32
nathanySertmann: how would you attribute a non CC licensed work you cited?22:33
nathanykeep in mind we don't do legal advice or opinions (and IANAL)22:33
Sertmannno no, I just need some advice, and understand the IANAL deal...22:34
ankitghdworak: it isn't where I thot it ought to be ... maybe the CC folks have a copy from the last time?22:34
Sertmannbut i ran around the wiki and forums, and couldn't find any clear cut answer to this...22:34
nathanythat phrase ("reasonable means") typically has been interpreted to mean you give attribution in the same place you would for other things; ie, the credits of a movie would be the appropriate place for film22:34
nathanySertmann: unfortunately the 1.0 license doesn't have the "group attribution" clause that allows creators to say "attribute reuse to this group (or collective)"22:35
Sertmannwell, that's not unfortunate in this case, for me anyway...22:36
hdworakankitg: yes, paul\proteus had it, thanks for looking for it though, I appreciate that22:37
hdworakankitg: and how's your living these days, buddy? still univ. and projects?22:38
ankitghdworak: you are tempting me to reapply!22:38
hdworakankitg: remember when I've told you that I'm taking a motorcycle course? :) nowadays I can drive a truck, too22:39
hdworakankitg: awesome!22:39
SertmannSo, by your best guestimate, where in this case someone publising wikitravel content (which is licensed under CC-attribution 1.0) and sells printed guides, are (probably) required to attribute all contributers of the content?22:39
ankitghdworak: could you send me a copy of my proposal =P22:39
Sertmannand not just state that a list of contributers can be found at http:/
hdworakankitg: sure, man22:41
* hdworak send the link on priv22:41
hdworak"sends" even!22:41
ankitghdworak: got it, thanks ...22:42
ankitghdworak: will work with you on this, either way ...22:42
hdworakthat's superb22:43
hdworakI'm gonna have a look at the work you've done and things you've written on CC Web site about the project22:43
hdworakplus your proposal, of course22:43
ankitgand I am going to go back on working on school project ... 6:43 am still in uni ... yay!22:45
hdworaknow that's crazy22:46
hdworak46 mins past the midnight here22:47
nathanySertmann: I'm not sure... there are examples of people selling printed guides so you could look at what they do.22:50
nathanymy guess would be that you should list contributors, but it's just that, a complete guess22:50
Sertmanner.. im not the seller, im the contributer (and admin) from wikitravel ;)22:57
Sertmannbut thanks for the opinion, been kinda surprised by this, I had always been under the impression that CC was fairly well organised, oh well, guess life would be boring without surprises.23:00
paulproteusYeah, CC by-sa 1.0 is sort of tragic this way. )-:23:10
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paulproteusroflnathan ?23:13
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paulproteusnkinkade, syn23:28
paulproteusnkinkade, Did you prepare de so it's ready for my committing test?23:28
paulproteusRight, there was nothing to commit/update.23:32
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nkinkadepaulproteus: Hey.23:42
nkinkadeSorry, earlier I tried the svn up and nothing was updated so I just tried the commit again from Pootle and strangely it worked.23:43
nkinkadeThen I went about doing what I needed to do.23:43
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paulproteusYup. I just made a note in the bug about the fact that it only appears to work. )-:23:44
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hdworakpaulproteus: who's in charge of now?23:48
hdworakI see it's not moved to git, so I thought it might be inactive for the time being23:48
hdworakI can't see the dates in the Web SVN preview23:49
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paulproteushdworak, It's active, just not super active, and it's maintained (sloppily) by me.23:51
paulproteusnkinkade, I'm writing up a response to your email about rebase. Summary: Yay.23:51
nkinkadepaulproteus: Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised when git-rebase --onto worked without error and in all of 5 seconds.23:52
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