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| jibot | nathany is teh preacher of teh gozpl of teh Ceiling Cat and witness to teh menny divine miraclz of Ceiling Cat | 00:04 |
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| jibot | jgay is http://www.gnu.org/people/speakers.html#Gay | 00:34 |
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| * K`Tetch_US needs some advice about a CC license aspect | 01:27 | |
| K`Tetch_US | I'm wondering in more detail, about the 'commercial' part, of a NC license | 01:28 |
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| mlinksva | K`Tetch_US: see http://wiki.creativecommons.org/NC | 01:29 |
| K`Tetch_US | yeah, read it | 01:32 |
| K`Tetch_US | just want some clarification | 01:32 |
| K`Tetch_US | going to release a study, and wondering if, by NC, it means commercial news orgs couldn't use it under that license | 01:33 |
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| jibot | Bovinity is brilliant and aware of Basement Cat, and iz not afraid. | 01:43 |
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| jibot | rejon is a killer MC from staten island and is the 10th member of the wutang clan and http://www.rejon.org/ | 02:29 |
| mecredis | paulproteus: around? | 02:59 |
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| jibot | jgay is http://www.gnu.org/people/speakers.html#Gay | 03:06 |
| mlinksva | K`Tetch_US: depends what you mean by "use" | 03:15 |
| mlinksva | if you mean republish (except for fair use), then probably not, but IANAL | 03:16 |
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| K`Tetch_US | mlinksva - i mean use to report from | 03:32 |
| K`Tetch_US | I'd like blogs to use it for free, but commercial sources, like say AP, fox, CNN, etc - to pay a nominal fee, like $5 | 03:33 |
| K`Tetch_US | guess i'll email in about it | 03:33 |
| K`Tetch_US | got to sort out a meeting with monica walsh too | 03:34 |
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| jibot | mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons | 04:07 |
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| jibot | ftobia is the other tech intern at Creative Commons and head of RPI Free Culture | 04:16 |
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| paulproteus | mecredis, Hi. | 05:39 |
| paulproteus | Email me. | 05:39 |
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| jibot | brianrowe is at Seattle University School of Law, class of 2009 and legal intern at CC | 06:30 |
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| Dense | Anyone around? I have a friend needing some advice on choosing a license. | 09:02 |
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| XSource_ | hey, what "License" would I want to use for a Software product that is meant to be Open Source, but doesn't allow commercial use? | 09:42 |
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| RainRat | xsource: i'm not aware of one, but if compatibility with existing works doesn't matter, you could make up a new one | 09:47 |
| XSource_ | ok RainRat, thank you | 09:50 |
| balor | XSource_: Such a restriction is incompatible with both the definition of Open Source and Free Software. | 09:50 |
| balor | XSource_: So there are no Open Source licences to that effect. | 09:50 |
| Dense | I think hes after a license that stops people profiting from his work while allowing them to see the source code and adding to it | 09:51 |
| balor | XSource_: I have seen kinds of 3-clasue BSD licences where the third clause says not-for-commercial-use | 09:51 |
| balor | XSource_: And Microsoft have look-but-don't-touch licences. | 09:51 |
| balor | Dense: I can understand that. | 09:52 |
| balor | Dense: Well, kind of....I've no idea why someone would contribute under those terms. | 09:53 |
| Dense | BAsically xsource wrote something that some companies have been taking and profiting from | 09:53 |
| Dense | he wants to stop that and get them to contact him if they want to use it in a commercial environment | 09:54 |
| balor | I'd, personally, use the GPL in that case or not release the source at all. | 09:54 |
| Dense | So GPL stops them from using it in a commercial products? | 09:55 |
| balor | The GPL would say that if you, the company, improve my product then I can profit from it (albeit in a round about way) | 09:55 |
| balor | Dense: No. Not at all. | 09:55 |
| Dense | i didnt think so | 09:55 |
| balor | Dense: But it does say that they have to release any of their modifications to their customers. | 09:55 |
| balor | Dense: And then their customers have the rights to return the modifications upstream. | 09:56 |
| Dense | the product he wrote isnt being improved by the company, they are just bundling it in and using it to add value to their sold product | 09:56 |
| balor | Dense: The GPL is a poison pill in that case. They can't use it without any statically-linked code becoming GPL. | 09:56 |
| balor | Dense: Essentially, if they're doing that, they'd be better off staying away from any GPL'ed product. | 09:57 |
| balor | XSource_: What licence is your product currently released under? | 09:57 |
| Dense | its a bit more complex, basically the product is a driver | 09:57 |
| Dense | so its standalone | 09:58 |
| balor | Dense: But if it's not currently released under a licence then the company have no rights to use it anyway. | 09:58 |
| Dense | he has no license yet which is why ive been helping him look for one | 09:58 |
| XSource_ | it's not under any of the known Licenses, just has a header in it that says I'm the Author of it | 09:58 |
| balor | XSource_: Then they are in violation of your copyright. | 09:58 |
| balor | XSource_: permission has to be given to copy, modify or redistribute. | 09:59 |
| Dense | Can you release something without a license? | 09:59 |
| balor | XSource_: They can't assume that, because they found it on the web that they can use it. | 09:59 |
| balor | Dense: Most things are. | 09:59 |
| balor | Dense: Consider the text of the New York Times | 09:59 |
| balor | Dense: It's copyrighted, but not released under any licence. | 09:59 |
| XSource_ | that's what I thought, like a common thing to assume.. | 10:00 |
| balor | Yup | 10:00 |
| Dense | so basically xsource decides if its ok or not for someone to use it | 10:00 |
| balor | Dense: Yes. | 10:00 |
| Dense | so thats kinda the way he needs to leave it :) | 10:00 |
| balor | Dense: Probably....depending on what he wants to do. | 10:01 |
| Dense | ill get him to explain it :) | 10:01 |
| XSource_ | mainly, it's meant to be free for anyone to use it, but for profit | 10:02 |
| balor | I'm a software engineer with several years of licencing experience. I'm not a solicitor (I'm in Europe) and I'm not affiliated with the CC | 10:02 |
| balor | XSource_: I've heard a few people talk about such things. It sounds like old-school shareware. | 10:03 |
| balor | XSource_: It's not something that comes under the umbrella of open source. | 10:03 |
| Dense | yeh i agree it doesnt match open source | 10:04 |
| balor | XSource_: But it sounds like these people owe you some money. | 10:04 |
| Dense | but i figured there has to be a license that meets the requirements he needs | 10:04 |
| balor | Dense: Possibly the CC-BY-NC | 10:04 |
| Dense | Yeh thats what i looked at | 10:04 |
| Dense | but it seemed like it didnt fit for software well | 10:05 |
| balor | Dense: But I believe the CC don't recommend their licences for software (don't quote me on that though) | 10:05 |
| RainRat | *CC-BY-NC-SA, otherwise there's a loophole | 10:05 |
| Dense | yeh CC-BY-NC-SA fits what he needs but it wasnt recommended for software | 10:05 |
| RainRat | yeah it says that somewhere on the cc site | 10:05 |
| balor | In my personal opinion XSource_ would be better off going with a copyleft licence such as the GPL. It won't stop commercial usage, but if someone didn't release their improvements you'd have legal help from the FSF. | 10:06 |
| Dense | thats what i originally thought but i knew it didnt stop commercial use | 10:07 |
| balor | Otherwise, if you use a non-commercial licence it'll be up to your wallet to hire any legal team. | 10:07 |
| balor | Dense: It's a balance of what you want. I don't have any issues with others using my code for commerical gain once they play fair. | 10:07 |
| balor | Dense: Where I'm happy with the GPL definition of play fair. | 10:07 |
| balor | Dense: But it's a very personal thing | 10:08 |
| Dense | xsource just wants anyone to use it but if you profit from it he deserves to profit as well (ie come to him for a seperate license ) | 10:08 |
| balor | The advantage of using a standard licencing scheme like the GPL is that there are others who can help if legal issues arise. | 10:08 |
| balor | Dense: I can empathise. But I suspect (s)he's going to have to hire their own lawyer and get them to talk to the company who are using his/her code without a licence. | 10:09 |
| Dense | in the current state, his code has copyright notices but no license, a commercial company has taken the source code, changed the copyright ot their name and is using it in a commercial product | 10:10 |
| balor | Other than the CC-BY-NC-SA I don't know of any other off-the-shelf licence that achieves what XSource wants. | 10:10 |
| balor | Dense: That sounds like a gross violation of his/her copyright | 10:10 |
| Dense | it is | 10:10 |
| balor | Dense: And it's a violation to remove copyright notices. | 10:10 |
| balor | So it would appear cut-and-dry to me, but I'm not a legal person. | 10:11 |
| Dense | but he has to get in line, a big gorilla has also taken legal action against the same company ;) | 10:11 |
| balor | Then your enemy's enemy is your friend. | 10:11 |
| Dense | agreed, company is so big that really its just a matter of time before the company is out of business, so solves itself | 10:12 |
| balor | Maybe transfer copyright of the code to Big Gorilla for a fee but licence it under the GPL then (a) Big Gorilla gets amunition and gives you money and (b) you can still use the work under the GPL. | 10:12 |
| balor | Sounds a little easier than hiring your own legal team and fighting a case. | 10:12 |
| Dense | yup | 10:13 |
| balor | XSource_: What's the product, out of interest? | 10:13 |
| Dense | its a mac kernel extension | 10:15 |
| balor | Dense: ah! I can guess who Big Gorrilla are then. And who's in the firing line. | 10:17 |
| Dense | Psystar ;) | 10:17 |
| balor | Figured that. | 10:18 |
| balor | AFAIK Darwin is licenced under the Apache 2 licence. | 10:18 |
| Dense | is that non commercial? | 10:19 |
| Dense | i dont think it is | 10:19 |
| balor | Actually it's the Apple Public Source Licence which is an Open Source licence | 10:19 |
| balor | Which implies that there are no restrictions on commercial usage of the code | 10:20 |
| Dense | so basically if he wants a license the way he wants hed need to approach an expert to write a custom one | 10:21 |
| Dense | there is no off the shelf one he can use | 10:21 |
| balor | As far as I know, he requires a custom licence. Unless the CC-BY-NC-SA is usable for software. | 10:21 |
| balor | And you can either create a non-commercial clause yourself (and run the risk of it being broken) or pay a solicitor to do it. | 10:22 |
| balor | Actually.....I think AT&T's Plan9 was originally under a non-commercial licence | 10:23 |
| balor | But defining non-commercial is a real PITA | 10:23 |
| Dense | eek | 10:23 |
| RainRat | The main disadvantage of using a CC license for software is that there's no requirement to provide source code if binaries are distributed | 10:23 |
| balor | Is a university non-commercial if they make money from students? | 10:23 |
| balor | RainRat: I doubt that;s an issue in this situation. I think XSource_ want's to disallow all commercial use of his/her code. | 10:24 |
| Dense | correct | 10:24 |
| balor | But the question of what is commercial usage is still an issue. | 10:24 |
| balor | What is commercial usage. And at this stage I'm at the end of my knowledge. | 10:25 |
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| XSource_ | balor, RainRat, Thanks a lot for the advices :-) | 13:28 |
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| jibot | mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons | 14:16 |
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| jibot | nathany is teh preacher of teh gozpl of teh Ceiling Cat and witness to teh menny divine miraclz of Ceiling Cat | 14:54 |
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| jibot | jgay is http://www.gnu.org/people/speakers.html#Gay | 15:24 |
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| jibot | Bovinity is brilliant and aware of Basement Cat, and iz not afraid. | 15:33 |
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| jibot | brianrowe is at Seattle University School of Law, class of 2009 and legal intern at CC | 15:58 |
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| jibot | ftobia is the other tech intern at Creative Commons and head of RPI Free Culture | 16:01 |
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| jibot | Steren is sitting next to greg-g and from Nancy | 16:04 |
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| greg-g | warning, if perchance, anyone here is using BZR, and has the dev team's PPA in their sources.list, don't upgrade to the last version, it takes over your command prompt | 16:10 |
| ftobia | "we are the bzr. your command prompt will be assimilated. its biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. resistance is futile." | 16:12 |
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| ftobia | nathany: is it true that, as of right now, the "license class" information resides within the LicenseSelectors, and is not a property of the licenses themselves? | 16:27 |
| nathany | uh, yes? | 16:27 |
| nathany | i'll take your word for it | 16:27 |
| ftobia | okay, i think that's the case, and i'm going to act like it is. and like it | 16:28 |
| ftobia | like it's what we want | 16:28 |
| nathany | great | 16:28 |
| ftobia | paulproteus: can you synchronize license.rdf from svn to git before next week, or tell me how to do it? | 16:32 |
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| jibot | currybot is currytastic and <3 fair use | 16:35 |
| currybot | jibot: mmm... curry... | 16:35 |
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| jibot | Bovinity is brilliant and aware of Basement Cat, and iz not afraid. | 16:36 |
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| nathany | nkinkade: custom python didn't fix things, trying with clean build of libxml2/libxslt1 | 17:00 |
| nkinkade | nathany: Cool. I'm glad to hear that it wasn't the default python install. | 17:01 |
| nathany | i suppose | 17:01 |
| nkinkade | It would have been convenient if that had fixed it, but disappointing in that the default Debian python build was broken for our purposes. | 17:01 |
| nkinkade | Does Zope get installed locally with bin/buildout? | 17:02 |
| nathany | i don't think the fact that it wasn't the cause makes your statement untrue :) | 17:02 |
| nathany | yes | 17:02 |
| nkinkade | Can we strace the zope process to get a better idea as to where it's bombing? | 17:02 |
| nathany | if i had my way you could install python without *any* standard library and the stdlib would be available as eggs | 17:02 |
| nathany | ooh good idea | 17:02 |
| nathany | voice | 17:02 |
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| ftobia | nathany: stand up? | 17:07 |
| nathany | in 10? | 17:08 |
| ftobia | okay but we'll have to make it quick, a few of us are heading out to lunch at internet archive soon. | 17:08 |
| nathany | ok | 17:09 |
| nathany | let me see if this process segfaults... | 17:10 |
| nathany | one sec | 17:10 |
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| nathany | currybot: list | 18:59 |
| currybot | (1) DAAL MAKHANI (Delicacy of kidney beans, chickpea and black beans cooked together in a butter curry) | 18:59 |
| currybot | (2) LAGANSHALA (Fresh Vegetables cooked in gravy of garlic, ginger, tomatoes, and vinegar) | 18:59 |
| currybot | (3) ELAICHI MURGA (Boneless chicken cubes cooked in cardamom flavored curry sauce) | 18:59 |
| currybot | (4) FRESH ASPARAGUS MEATBALL (Beef meatballs cooked with fresh asparagus, red onions, and tomato gravy) | 18:59 |
| nathany | currybot: 1 | 18:59 |
| currybot | DAAL MAKHANI (Delicacy of kidney beans, chickpea and black beans cooked together in a butter curry) Daal Makhni is an all time favorite especially of Punjab the northern region. Daal Makhani is an entrée, which you can find in every occasion as it makes the menu incomplete. The making of this entrée starts one day before serving as all the above started beans are mixed washed and kept in water for at least one night, the other day | 18:59 |
| currybot | $5.00 | 18:59 |
| Bovinity | currybot: 3 | 18:59 |
| currybot | ELAICHI MURGA (Boneless chicken cubes cooked in cardamom flavored curry sauce) This flavorful, boneless chicken curry is prepared by first dry marinating chicken with the powder of cardamoms, dry coriander powder and salt. After a couple of hours we cook the marinated chicken with red onions, garlic and ginger paste with several spices in a heavy vessel, sparingly stirring with mango-wood spoon over a low heat, till the oil separa | 18:59 |
| currybot | $ 5.00 | 18:59 |
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| paulproteus | ftobia, email me | 20:06 |
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| nkinkade | nathany: Are you making any active commits to code.CC.org? | 21:11 |
| nkinkade | I may try to move it first. | 21:11 |
| nathany | not at the moment. | 21:11 |
| nkinkade | If anyone else on the list is using http://code.creativecommons.org, hold off for a few minutes as I move it to a new server. | 21:11 |
| nathany | that's not dependent on the server's SSH key, is it? | 21:12 |
| nkinkade | nathany: People will probably get some warnings from SSH because the hosts SSH key will have changed. | 21:14 |
| nkinkade | But it's nothing that fixing .ssh/known_hosts won't fix. | 21:14 |
| nathany | yeah, ok | 21:14 |
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| nkinkade | nathany: Now that I think about it, we may have to put a freeze on commits until DNS converges. git and svn use their own ports and I don't know of any mechanism to redirect to another host for those services. | 21:24 |
| nathany | nkinkade: that makes sense but will need to be announced on cc-devel | 21:25 |
| nathany | (at least 24 hours advance notice, i think) | 21:25 |
| nkinkade | Right. gitweb and viewvc can still work, but commits may have to stop for a while. | 21:25 |
| nkinkade | Well, I can make an announcement, move everything else today, then change the DNS for code on Monday, wait until Tuesday for DNS to converge then move it over. | 21:27 |
| nathany | sounds good | 21:27 |
| nkinkade | There might be some way to do this via iptables, but I'm not sure what it is off the top of my head. | 21:27 |
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| jibot | davidstrauss is "P" and not "P" | 22:05 |
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| Steren | http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ | 22:17 |
| Steren | facebook was down for a couple of minute | 22:20 |
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| mlinksva | http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/downforeveryoneorjustme.com | 22:29 |
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| mecredis | Bovinity: are you aware of a way to prevent posts in certain categories from hitting the front page of wordpress? | 23:34 |
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| nkinkade | mecredis: We are doing something similar for ccLearn and certain posts. | 23:37 |
| mecredis | OK | 23:37 |
| mecredis | how do you do it? | 23:37 |
| nkinkade | It think it's a config in the theme | 23:38 |
| mecredis | that modifies the query? | 23:38 |
| nkinkade | You have to exclude a certain category number. | 23:38 |
| nkinkade | Right. | 23:38 |
| mecredis | AND NOT ... | 23:38 |
| nkinkade | What posts don't you want to show up on the front page? | 23:38 |
| mecredis | not for cc.org | 23:38 |
| * mecredis is off duty for the day | 23:38 | |
| mecredis | another project | 23:39 |
| nkinkade | Ah. | 23:39 |
| mecredis | where we'll have a "curated" front page | 23:39 |
| mecredis | and a "free for all" back page | 23:39 |
| nkinkade | Let me find the bit at the CC blog that does it. | 23:39 |
| mecredis | great, thanks | 23:39 |
| mlinksva | i think it has to be in the Weblog category to appear in the front page, so AND not AND NOT, though you could do it either way | 23:40 |
| mecredis | ah I see | 23:41 |
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| mecredis | the Weblog category seems to push it to the CC frontpage | 23:42 |
| mecredis | but I think Wordpress just defaults | 23:42 |
| mecredis | to post everything there | 23:42 |
| mlinksva | right | 23:43 |
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| jibot | Steren is sitting next to greg-g and from Nancy | 23:43 |
| Steren | Does someone know how the po files of the cc.engine are generated ? Because they contain unvalid xhtml, and I don't know where to modify them. | 23:44 |
| nkinkade | mecredis: Inside the while ( have_posts() ) loop is this: | 23:45 |
| nkinkade | if (!in_category(1) && !is_single()) { continue; }?> | 23:45 |
| nkinkade | So I'm guessing that category 1 is "Weblog" | 23:45 |
| mecredis | OK and thats in the theme? | 23:46 |
| mecredis | and that's for cc Learn's 'hack' ? | 23:47 |
| mecredis | not default WP code, right? | 23:47 |
| nkinkade | mecredis: Yeah, it's in the index.php file for the theme. | 23:47 |
| mecredis | ok | 23:47 |
| nkinkade | You can always peek at the whole thing at code.creativecommons.org | 23:47 |
| mlinksva | but that's not for ccLearn, for main CC site, right? | 23:47 |
| mlinksva | there are similar hacks for the likes of http://creativecommons.org/commoners | 23:48 |
| nkinkade | Yes, that's for the main CC site. | 23:48 |
| mecredis | so its saying if its not in category 1? the logic seems backwards to me | 23:48 |
| mlinksva | continue | 23:48 |
| mlinksva | it skips if not in cat 1 | 23:48 |
| mecredis | ah OK | 23:49 |
| mecredis | too short of a snippit | 23:49 |
| mecredis | haha | 23:49 |
| mecredis | but wait | 23:49 |
| mecredis | no, still confused ... there's a shebang | 23:50 |
| mecredis | !in_category(1) translates to "if its not in category 1" | 23:50 |
| mecredis | then continue? | 23:50 |
| mlinksva | right | 23:51 |
| mlinksva | continue to next item | 23:51 |
| mlinksva | ie do nothing for that item | 23:51 |
| mecredis | and parse it | 23:51 |
| mecredis | I see | 23:51 |
| mlinksva | right | 23:51 |
| mecredis | thanks | 23:51 |
| mecredis | I'll look at my index | 23:51 |
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| mecredis | nkinkade: what file is that? | 23:59 |
| nkinkade | ./wp-content/theme/<yourtheme>/index.php | 23:59 |
| nkinkade | s/theme/themes/ | 23:59 |
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