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| hdworak | stumbled upon this bug: http://groups.google.com/group/beautifulsoup/browse_thread/thread/c7d096e68ff4521c | 03:27 |
|---|---|---|
| hdworak | so watch out | 03:27 |
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| bring2 | hello, im curious if i would like to 1) allow anyone to use & remix the work with attribution (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/) and also 2) allow non-commercial usage with no attribution, is there a good way to do this through CC licenses? | 04:31 |
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| hdworak | bring2: I guess you can simply go for a dual license | 04:59 |
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| hdworak | hi Ankit | 04:59 |
| ankitg | Hi hdworak | 05:02 |
| bring2 | hdworak, thanks but what other license? all of them include "attribution" except public domain :/ | 05:05 |
| hdworak | huh? | 05:07 |
| hdworak | :) | 05:07 |
| hdworak | "All of our licenses require that you give attribution in the manner specified by the author or licensor." | 05:07 |
| hdworak | http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses | 05:07 |
| hdworak | you are right | 05:07 |
| * hdworak has found a bug in utidylib and is not happy about that at all | 05:09 | |
| bring2 | hmm, can you recommend some other licenses then? id like to include a standardized license, but would also prefer to allow non-commercial works to skip attribution (if they so choose) | 05:10 |
| bring2 | what's utidy? | 05:10 |
| hdworak | http://utidylib.berlios.de/ | 05:11 |
| hdworak | or Ubuntu package python-utidylib | 05:11 |
| hdworak | ok, issue resolved | 05:34 |
| hdworak | bring2: I can't think of anything, I'm not a lawyer, I'm sorry | 05:35 |
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| hdworak | what is it that you actually want to license? | 05:36 |
| hdworak | music, software, or whatnot? | 05:36 |
| bring2 | blog posts, some technical guides | 05:45 |
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| hdworak | then I dunno really | 05:49 |
| hdworak | say you would like to have cc-nc w/o sa (if one existed) | 05:50 |
| hdworak | and w/o by | 05:50 |
| hdworak | do you mean w/o by and w/o sa? | 05:50 |
| hdworak | if so, what's the problem with copying your work to a non-commerical work which is then released into public domain? | 05:51 |
| hdworak | so that another project can use it commerically | 05:51 |
| hdworak | or do you mean nc-sa ? | 05:51 |
| hdworak | but w/o by? | 05:51 |
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| bring2 | well, public domain means that anyone could use it commercially, without attribution | 06:58 |
| bring2 | but, i'd prefer commercial use requires attribution, while letting non-commercial usage forego attribution (if they choose) | 06:58 |
| bring2 | <hdworak> say you would like to have cc-nc w/o sa (if one existed) - that sounds about right :) | 07:01 |
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| ankitg | bring2 you need a CC BY license for those who want use your work for commercial purposes and a PD for the non-commercial purposes ... | 07:07 |
| bring2 | ankitg, hmm but how can you can release something to only non-commercial PD? if it's PD, that means someone could use it for commercial purposes right? | 07:08 |
| hdworak | there is no non-commerical PD | 07:08 |
| hdworak | so as I was saying, if you have non-commerical license but not share-alike | 07:09 |
| hdworak | I take 100% of your work to an uncommerical project named Project1 | 07:09 |
| hdworak | and license this project as PD | 07:09 |
| hdworak | legal? | 07:10 |
| hdworak | then I take Project1 and do Project2 based on that, which is commercial | 07:10 |
| hdworak | once you go public domain with your project, you can't sue me for anything, because you've withdrew all of your rights to your work | 07:13 |
| bring2 | sorry im not so familiar with these terms, but in this case Project1 could be used for commercial purposes, without attribution, which is not something i want to allow | 07:13 |
| hdworak | imho Project1 not, just, if it's released under PD, its remixes | 07:14 |
| hdworak | but that's just how I understand the lack of share-alike, I can be plain wrong here | 07:15 |
| hdworak | plus I don't know many alternatives to cc licences (when we do not count software licences) | 07:15 |
| hdworak | you can secure all the rights (copyright), you can withdraw all the rights (pd) | 07:16 |
| bring2 | in the example, Project1 is released as PD, but i want to require any commercial users to include attribution | 07:16 |
| hdworak | one alternative is GNU FDL | 07:16 |
| bring2 | yeah that is where i know CC licenses from, i think any software license would be ok as long as it includes the terms im interested in, just haven't found one | 07:16 |
| hdworak | once Project1 is released as public domain, you cannot require anything about it | 07:16 |
| bring2 | yeah that is why your example doesnt work for me :( | 07:17 |
| hdworak | it's like you never ever owned it in the first place | 07:17 |
| bring2 | ok cool ill check GNU FDL, you think that will be appropriate for what i'd like? | 07:17 |
| hdworak | no, absolutely not | 07:18 |
| hdworak | I just mention it as an alternative | 07:18 |
| ankitg | I see the problem ... you need a CC-BY license for your data but want to give the option to forgo the attribution requirement for non-commercial uses ... | 07:18 |
| hdworak | in general | 07:18 |
| bring2 | hdworak, hehe ok well ill still check it out | 07:18 |
| hdworak | the whole problem here is whether you make the license viral or not | 07:18 |
| bring2 | ankitg, yep that is it exactly | 07:18 |
| ankitg | I am not sure how that clause can be made possible ... al the CC licenses offered now require attribution ... | 07:19 |
| bring2 | ankitg, yeah it looks that way, its understandable but that means i think ill have to find some other licenses besides CC :/ | 07:19 |
| hdworak | let's make it clear | 07:20 |
| hdworak | you have a work you want to license (Project0) | 07:20 |
| hdworak | another person wants to make a public domain work based on Project0, the work of this person is not commerical | 07:21 |
| hdworak | let's call it Project1 | 07:21 |
| hdworak | what do you want Project1 to do? | 07:21 |
| hdworak | bring2? | 07:23 |
| bring2 | hmm well there is not anyone else involved right now, but i want people to have the option of using Project0 (of which i am the author) in either a Non-Commercial purpose, in which case they may choose not to attribute my original Project0, or for Commercial purposes, in which case they must include attribution for my original Project0 work | 07:23 |
| * bring2 *type type type* | 07:23 | |
| bring2 | :) | 07:23 |
| hdworak | I understand, I'm asking about Project1 | 07:26 |
| hdworak | what do you want the author of Project1 to do? | 07:26 |
| bring2 | actually none of it should be released into the public domain, just want to have pretty open licenses | 07:26 |
| hdworak | in the case I've just described | 07:26 |
| hdworak | I understand that you do not release it under PD | 07:26 |
| hdworak | I'm saying non-commerical Project1 goes PD | 07:26 |
| bring2 | idk what would Project1 be? | 07:26 |
| hdworak | idk? | 07:27 |
| bring2 | i don't know | 07:28 |
| hdworak | ok | 07:28 |
| hdworak | let's say a Web page entitled | 07:28 |
| bring2 | ok, so you mean what portions could Project1 use if they wanted to release as PD? | 07:28 |
| hdworak | no, I'm saying the problem is you do not want share-alike | 07:29 |
| hdworak | you just want non-commerical | 07:29 |
| hdworak | so someone does non-commerical work and does not release it under the same license, but less restrictive license or even w/o one (PD) | 07:30 |
| hdworak | and they do not attribute you, 'cause you didn't ask for that | 07:30 |
| hdworak | is that right? | 07:30 |
| hdworak | then how on Earth a third guy doing commerical work based on that non-commerical work can know you've created Project0 - the origin of it all - in the first place? | 07:31 |
| hdworak | if you didn't require attribution in Project1 | 07:31 |
| bring2 | hmm ok well, Project1 could not release my work under PD, because im still holding the copyright | 07:35 |
| bring2 | they have the right to use the work from Project0 (without attribution) only for non-commercial purposes | 07:37 |
| hdworak | ok | 07:37 |
| hdworak | so let's say they say | 07:37 |
| hdworak | you can use Project1 for whatever you like unless it's commerical | 07:38 |
| hdworak | is that valid w/ the license of your project? | 07:38 |
| bring2 | hmm i guess that is the Share-Alike clause, i do not want to require it, but of course they cannot grant any privileges which have already been disallowed | 07:39 |
| hdworak | exactly | 07:40 |
| hdworak | when I've asked you in the very beginning, you said you do not want share-alike | 07:40 |
| bring2 | so, Project1 can use any license they want, but they could not release in the Public Domain because they do not hold those rights | 07:40 |
| hdworak | if it's nc-sa, then it's no problem | 07:40 |
| bring2 | they can use the same license or not, it doesn't matter to me :) | 07:41 |
| hdworak | if it's just nc, then I do Project1 based on that with the following license: "you can use this for any purpose and under any license, as long as this is non-commerical; in such cas you do not need to include a license yourself and attribute any of us" | 07:42 |
| bring2 | nc-sa would fine, but in those case i don't want to require them to attribute me | 07:42 |
| bring2 | yah simple non-commercial would be fine too | 07:42 |
| hdworak | then comes Project2 which is also non-commerical, takes all the code from Project1 and releases it into PD | 07:42 |
| bring2 | maybe there is no need, but i'd prefer some license that is written up somewhere i can refer to :) | 07:43 |
| hdworak | then comes Project3 which takes PD code and uses it commerically | 07:43 |
| bring2 | umm Project2 does not have the right to release it under PD | 07:43 |
| hdworak | why? | 07:44 |
| hdworak | they could do anything with the code if it's for commercial purposes | 07:44 |
| hdworak | we're talking about non-by non-sa case | 07:44 |
| hdworak | just pure nc | 07:45 |
| bring2 | what's by? | 07:45 |
| hdworak | attribution | 07:45 |
| hdworak | if it's for = if it's not for | 07:45 |
| bring2 | ok yeah, they can freely use it, but that does not mean they have the right to grant PD license to the material | 07:45 |
| hdworak | why is that? | 07:46 |
| hdworak | are you sure you're talking about Project2 not Project1? | 07:46 |
| bring2 | im still holding the copyright, just allowing its use under certain terms, at what point was the work released into the public domain? | 07:46 |
| hdworak | Project 0 (your license)->non-commerical Project 1 (nc non-by non-sa) -> non-commerical Project 2 (pd) -> commerical Project 3 | 07:47 |
| hdworak | Project 2 guys don't even know you exist | 07:47 |
| hdworak | because you didn't require -by from Project 1 | 07:48 |
| hdworak | right? | 07:48 |
| ankitg | I believe there is way to have two different licenses for commercial and non-commercial purposes ... and I understand you want a CC-BY license for the commercial uses of your work ... I can't think of anything other than PD which is less restrictive than CC-BY ... though I am not a lawyer ... | 07:48 |
| bring2 | neither Project1 nor Project2 have the authority to allow usage which is not permitted according the terms of the Project0 release license | 07:48 |
| hdworak | for Project2 there is no Project0, right? | 07:49 |
| hdworak | because there is no-by and no-sa | 07:49 |
| hdworak | if you want remixes to inherit your rights, you use -sa | 07:49 |
| hdworak | if you don't want them to inherit your rights, you go no-sa | 07:50 |
| hdworak | you did nc, no-by, no-sa | 07:50 |
| hdworak | how is P2 suppose to know about P0? | 07:51 |
| hdworak | please explain to me :) | 07:51 |
| bring2 | well even if Project1 does not use the exact same license, they cannot grant certain privileges, as copyright ownership is still maintained by Project0 | 07:51 |
| bring2 | idk that is their problem :) | 07:51 |
| hdworak | P1 is in full compliance with your terms | 07:51 |
| hdworak | they released nc work | 07:51 |
| hdworak | now they license their work as pd for non-commerical use only | 07:52 |
| bring2 | ankitg, thanks i guess thats what im looking for | 07:52 |
| hdworak | (paraphrased) | 07:52 |
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| hdworak | by pd here I mean "anything goes as long as your work is non-commerical" | 07:52 |
| hdworak | right? | 07:52 |
| bring2 | P1 can use the content, but regardless of -SA they are not allowed to release the work as PD | 07:52 |
| hdworak | ^^^ | 07:53 |
| hdworak | by pd here I mean "anything goes as long as your work is non-commerical" | 07:53 |
| hdworak | legal? | 07:53 |
| hdworak | can P1 be released on such terms? | 07:53 |
| hdworak | because your license was only nc | 07:53 |
| bring2 | well im not sure what "anything goes" would include, but my point is that P0 does not release the work into PD, therefore P1 cannot either | 07:53 |
| bring2 | the license allows non-commercial usage, but does not mean that anyone can claim authorship or release the work into PD when it has not been | 07:54 |
| hdworak | anything goes = "you are hereby granted the right to use this work for any purpose and in any medium as long as your work remains non-commercial" | 07:54 |
| hdworak | legal for P1? | 07:54 |
| bring2 | yeah if P1 were to try to place material from P0 into the public domain, that would be illegal, since P0 still owns copyright | 07:55 |
| bring2 | im not a lawyer either btw :D | 07:55 |
| hdworak | omg | 07:55 |
| hdworak | I'm sorry I've used the term PD when it comes to P1 | 07:55 |
| hdworak | please replace with "you are hereby granted the right to use this work for any purpose and in any medium as long as your work remains non-commercial" | 07:55 |
| hdworak | legal for P1? | 07:55 |
| hdworak | this would be the least restrictive nc license I could think of | 07:56 |
| bring2 | yeah so this would the license for the P0 material? | 07:56 |
| hdworak | yes, but I'm introducing P1 to show you how we get rid of your license in the midstep | 07:57 |
| hdworak | because P0 was dual-licensed, P1 is not | 07:57 |
| bring2 | or for the P1 material? i guess the point is, P1 cannot "release" P0 material under any license, since they do not own the copyright, they can merely use it | 07:57 |
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| hdworak | ok | 07:58 |
| hdworak | I thought you want nc to be transferable | 07:58 |
| hdworak | but now it's clear you do not allow any P2s if P1 uses your work w/o attribution non-commerically | 07:59 |
| hdworak | I thought you thought of P0 nc license as "you are hereby granted the right to use this work for any purpose and in any medium as long as your work remains non-commercial" | 07:59 |
| hdworak | and you seemed to confirm this by "yeah so this would the license for the P0 material?" | 08:00 |
| hdworak | but you want nc-usage of your work to be w/o the right to further remixes | 08:00 |
| bring2 | yes, they are free to use it, but cannot grant license privileges which have still been retained in the P0 license | 08:00 |
| hdworak | then this is share-alike | 08:01 |
| hdworak | which I'm trying to explain from the very beginning | 08:01 |
| hdworak | 1st question | 08:01 |
| bring2 | well, as i understand it, a licensee is prohibited from granting additional right by the nature of copyright law, regardless of a SA clause | 08:01 |
| ankitg | Hugo, I think bring2 just needs to use a CC-BY ... he wants to be extra nice by saying attribution is optional in cases of non-commercial usage ... which I think can just be mentioned on the blog where he links to the license deed ... | 08:02 |
| hdworak | if someone does non-commerical work (P1) under your license (nc w/o by), can this work be a subject of further work by someone else? | 08:02 |
| bring2 | but i really don't mind including a SA clause, as long as its still possible to allow what i want | 08:02 |
| hdworak | yes, all I'm saying is that if there is no -by | 08:02 |
| hdworak | which is a subject of all cc licenses | 08:02 |
| hdworak | then P2 will never know about you | 08:03 |
| hdworak | about your dual license for P0 | 08:03 |
| hdworak | etc. | 08:03 |
| bring2 | ankitg, that might work fine, just trying to find a bit more standardized license than stating this in my own language | 08:03 |
| hdworak | all they know was "this was meant to be used for non-commerical purposes" | 08:03 |
| ankitg | hdworak, true ... which is why BY is a feature of all cc licences .. | 08:03 |
| hdworak | ankitg: exactly | 08:03 |
| hdworak | and all I'm stating is that it's there for a good reason | 08:04 |
| hdworak | if you release under nc w/o by and w/o sa, there is no you | 08:04 |
| ankitg | also because CC tried launching some licenses without the BY clause and there was very little adoption ... so they dropped them ... | 08:05 |
| bring2 | well P1 could use the content without attribution and without releasing under the same license, but still would not have the right to change the license for any P0 material | 08:05 |
| hdworak | bring2's P0 - dual license (by OR nc) | 08:05 |
| hdworak | non-profit's P1 - nc | 08:06 |
| hdworak | non-profit's P2 - pd | 08:06 |
| hdworak | for-profit's P3 - all rights reserved | 08:06 |
| hdworak | bring2: when P1 allows the reuse of their work, they do not need to include your license or attribute you | 08:07 |
| hdworak | because you've chosen nc only (w/o sa, w/o by) | 08:07 |
| hdworak | and they comply - their work is nc | 08:07 |
| bring2 | p2 cannot release NC work as PD | 08:07 |
| hdworak | why's that? | 08:08 |
| hdworak | where is that stated? | 08:08 |
| bring2 | they do not own the rights on P1, they are only allowed to use it under terms of P2 | 08:08 |
| bring2 | my understanding is you do not have the right to release work as PD unless you are the copyright owner | 08:08 |
| hdworak | they've complied to P1 license - "anything goes as long as it nc" | 08:08 |
| hdworak | so they've releasing their nc work as pd | 08:09 |
| hdworak | what's illegal about this? | 08:09 |
| bring2 | well the P0 license grants usage, but P1 does not have the rights for P0 material, so if the P1 release includes P0 material they cannot grant any rights which are reserved by P0 | 08:10 |
| hdworak | but it ain't share-alike :) | 08:11 |
| bring2 | likewise P2 can use material from P1 under P1's license, but that does not include the right to release P1 material into the public domain | 08:11 |
| hdworak | this is our assumption from the very beginning | 08:11 |
| bring2 | those rights are reserved inherently by copyright law, even if P0 does not explicitly require share-alike | 08:11 |
| hdworak | if it was nc-sa, then you've got a perfectly valid point | 08:12 |
| bring2 | according to my understanding of US copyright law | 08:12 |
| hdworak | ok, then cc sa doesn't make sense | 08:12 |
| hdworak | oh no | 08:12 |
| hdworak | I get it now | 08:12 |
| bring2 | if i write a book, and release it for non-commercial usage, someone cannot put it into a story collection and release the whole thing as public domain, even if i didn't original require share-alike | 08:13 |
| bring2 | *originally | 08:13 |
| hdworak | n/p, this conversation is over, I've understood the purpose of sa | 08:13 |
| hdworak | thanks for helping me understand it | 08:13 |
| bring2 | frankly, i'd be okay with the share-alike requirement, but still can't figure out how to allow commercial use with attribution, and non-commercial use without attribution using (using CC licenses) | 08:14 |
| bring2 | lol sure np, working out all the different possibilities helps me figure out what i want alot better too :) | 08:14 |
| hdworak | it simple - using just cc licenses pool you can't | 08:17 |
| hdworak | they all require by | 08:17 |
| hdworak | you would have to explicitly disclaim that right | 08:17 |
| bring2 | yup thats what im thinking, do you know if there are any good websites that compare popular content sharing licenses? something similar to CC licenses, with that small change would be good for my use | 08:18 |
| hdworak | frankly if you do not count software licenses, I can think only of pd, cc, and gfdl | 08:19 |
| bring2 | that might be the best option, trying to write up my own license is too cumbersome, and people are hesitant to use it unless they recognize the license | 08:19 |
| hdworak | if you're not a lawyer do not even think of writing your own license | 08:19 |
| bring2 | some software license might work ok, there shouldn't be much difference between a computer program source file and a blog post | 08:19 |
| bring2 | haha yeah, thats what im trying to avoid :) | 08:20 |
| hdworak | http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html#DocumentationLicenses | 08:21 |
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| bring2 | cool thanks, ill check these out | 08:22 |
| bring2 | they take alot longer to read than CC's nice summaries :D | 08:23 |
| hdworak | http://copyright.claremont.edu/CopyrightAlternatives.html | 08:26 |
| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Baseline_Rights | 08:26 |
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| conley | bring2: There's also art libre | 08:44 |
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| hdworak | yeah | 08:48 |
| hdworak | recommened by FSF :) | 08:48 |
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| hdworak | http://ben.adida.net/presentations/www2008-rdfa/#(26) says "license is a reserved HTML keyword" - since when? | 09:00 |
| hdworak | can't see it listed here http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html#type-links | 09:00 |
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| encompass | hello everyone... | 09:34 |
| encompass | Does CC have a standard on how to tag your rss feeds or video to show it's CC licence? | 09:35 |
| encompass | I am working on making a reader for this for Miro | 09:35 |
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| bring2 | idk, but Miro is great :) | 09:42 |
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| encompass | bring2: thanks your cool too :D | 09:50 |
| bring2 | lol, not as cool as Miro :D | 09:51 |
| bring2 | but thanks :) | 09:51 |
| nathany | encompass: see http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Syndication | 09:53 |
| nathany | there are specs there for RSS, RSS 2 and Atom | 09:53 |
| * encompass hugs nathany "dude thanks" | 09:53 | |
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| nathany | we did a patch for Miro a while back that implemented at least part of this (exposing license information from the feeds) | 09:53 |
| nathany | it's in their builds now | 09:53 |
| * paulproteus waves quietly. | 09:53 | |
| nathany | (and has been since 1.1 or something like that) | 09:53 |
| nathany | hola, paulproteus | 09:53 |
| hdworak | http://ben.adida.net/presentations/www2008-rdfa/#(26) says "license is a reserved HTML keyword" - since when? | 09:54 |
| hdworak | can't see it listed here http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html#type-links | 09:54 |
| nathany | hdworak: perhaps he was referring to XHTML? you'd have to ask him :) | 09:55 |
| hdworak | is there a difference in link types for XHTML? | 09:55 |
| hdworak | I thought it's just a reformulation of HTML as an XML application | 09:55 |
| nathany | IDK | 09:56 |
| hdworak | there is no word license in XHTML 1.0 recommendation | 09:56 |
| hdworak | and apparently no such word in HTML 4.01 either | 09:57 |
| hdworak | :) | 09:57 |
| hdworak | http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/html40.txt | 09:57 |
| hdworak | http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ | 09:58 |
| hdworak | ok, so I don't know what Dr. Adida had on his mind | 09:58 |
| nathany | hdworak: http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/ | 10:00 |
| hdworak | oh, I see IvanHerman is on IRC | 10:00 |
| hdworak | ok, but that's not pure XHTML | 10:01 |
| hdworak | but that XHTML+RDF chimera? | 10:01 |
| nathany | what are you talking about? | 10:01 |
| hdworak | XHTML 1.0/1.1 recommendation | 10:01 |
| paulproteus | nathany, He's talking about the XHTML+RDFa DTD | 10:01 |
| paulproteus | But no, this is not that; this is the XHTML vocabulary. | 10:01 |
| paulproteus | I think | 10:02 |
| hdworak | it's developed by XHTML 2 WG | 10:02 |
| * nathany returns to thinking about things that he cares about atm | 10:02 | |
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| hdworak | thanks for the link :) | 10:04 |
| hdworak | is there a list of all these means (present and deprecated) of embedding info about cc licences? at least in HTML? | 10:05 |
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| hdworak | RDFa, DC's dc:license, RDF comments embedded in the XHTML code, RDF comments embedded directly in "head" or "body" elements, external RDF files | 10:08 |
| nathany | hdworak: see http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Extend_Metadata | 10:09 |
| hdworak | thanks | 10:11 |
| hdworak | :) | 10:11 |
| hdworak | if we have rel="license" in the XHTML code, does it always refer to the license of this particular document or it can refer to a license of something else that is mentioned on the page? | 10:14 |
| nathany | hdworak: it depends ;) | 10:20 |
| nathany | seriously, though, when processing as RDFa, you need to determine the context | 10:20 |
| nathany | i don't recommend dealing with this yourself, just use an existing rdfa parsing library like librdfa or rdfadict | 10:20 |
| nathany | (note the latter is somewhat out of date) | 10:21 |
| hdworak | http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=lang%3Apy+librdfa&hl=pl&btnG=Wyszukaj+kod | 10:25 |
| hdworak | :) | 10:25 |
| hdworak | actually it's 0 even w/o lang:py | 10:25 |
| hdworak | gonna look for a tutorial/example on Google | 10:26 |
| paulproteus | http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/librdfa/trac/browser indicates there are Python bindings. | 10:26 |
| hdworak | yes, and they provide .deb packages | 10:27 |
| hdworak | I've already installed that | 10:27 |
| hdworak | http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/librdfa/trac/browser/tests/rdfa2n3.py | 10:27 |
| hdworak | they call it rdfa as package name | 10:28 |
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| hdworak | http://code.google.com/p/obverify/source/browse/trunk/obVerify.php | 10:29 |
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| hdworak | so when parsing RDF, all we'll get are those triples? | 10:35 |
| hdworak | subject-predicate-object | 10:36 |
| hdworak | ? | 10:36 |
| hdworak | and then if predicate is license or DC:license and object is a URL somewhere in the cc domain then we care? | 10:44 |
| hdworak | on that Wiki page http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Extend_Metadata#Defining_dc:rights | 10:48 |
| hdworak | shouldn't it be dc:license instead of cc:license (third code block) | 10:48 |
| hdworak | ? | 10:48 |
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| hdworak | is the only thing we are interested in the hyperlink to the license? | 11:13 |
| hdworak | there are no more metadata about licensing itself in the document | 11:13 |
| hdworak | just the link to cc ? | 11:13 |
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| hdworak | and we cannot rely on the "cc" or "dc" prefix, but we have to check to which namespace URI it does correspond, right? | 11:22 |
| hdworak | 'cause someone can name xmlns:foobar="http://validuri" and then foobar:license | 11:22 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, Right, that's part of the point of XML (and RDFa) namespaces. | 11:23 |
| paulproteus | librdfa will handle it, though. | 11:23 |
| hdworak | oh, finally | 11:24 |
| paulproteus | I went to take a nap. | 11:24 |
| paulproteus | (-: | 11:24 |
| hdworak | I thought I have exceeded the allowed questions per week limit | 11:24 |
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| hdworak | but anyway, the above are serious questions | 11:25 |
| hdworak | we parse RDF (external or embedded) and we get triples in the result | 11:25 |
| hdworak | and from that triples, we are interested only in those that contain http://cc.org/something as the object | 11:26 |
| hdworak | is that true? | 11:26 |
| paulproteus | No, I think there may be a few others. | 11:26 |
| paulproteus | We should display dc:title for example if we find it. | 11:26 |
| paulproteus | Basically, whatever the license chooser generates. | 11:26 |
| hdworak | whatever? | 11:27 |
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| hdworak | 1. we scan for objects containing creativecommons URI | 11:28 |
| hdworak | 2. if we find such a triple, we check the predicate - whether it matches license or dc.license or dc.rights | 11:28 |
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| paulproteus | dc.license might be rdf:sameAs cc:license, I'm not sure. | 11:28 |
| hdworak | 3. if it does, we know that the subject has a CC license | 11:28 |
| paulproteus | dc:license, that is. | 11:28 |
| hdworak | 4. then we can present other data (found in other triples) that belong to the subject with a human-readable info about the license | 11:29 |
| hdworak | we can present such data (=other triples with the same subject) in a table | 11:30 |
| hdworak | or do you mean something else? | 11:30 |
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| hdworak | http://www.w3.org/2007/08/pyRdfa/extract?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.creativecommons.org&format=pretty-xml&submit=go! | 11:43 |
| paulproteus | Hazzah, our HTML sucks. | 11:43 |
| paulproteus | nathany, Do you have admin access to our Google apps? | 11:43 |
| nathany | yes | 11:44 |
| paulproteus | Can you do me a favor and log in and change my email redirect so that it goes to paulproteus+cc<at>acm.jhu.edu instead of where it goes now? | 11:44 |
| nathany | yes, IAM | 11:45 |
| hdworak | paulproteus: you said you don't believe in e-mail address obfuscation | 11:45 |
| hdworak | :) | 11:45 |
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| paulproteus | I wonder what "IAM" means. I presume that's an ACK of some sort. | 11:47 |
| nathany | "in a minute" | 11:47 |
| paulproteus | Oh, okay. | 11:47 |
| nathany | paulproteus: does the current address look sort of... obfuscated? | 11:47 |
| paulproteus | Cool, no huge rush. | 11:47 |
| nathany | (just making sure i change the right thing here) | 11:47 |
| paulproteus | It looks sort of... uniqified, let's say. | 11:47 |
| nathany | ok] | 11:47 |
| nathany | paulproteus: done | 11:48 |
| hdworak | misspell "URI of XHMTL file" | 11:49 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, Desperate times call for desperate measures.... | 11:49 |
| hdworak | then in the .tar.gz source they have wrong link to the license | 11:49 |
| paulproteus | ? | 11:49 |
| hdworak | I'm talking about http://www.w3.org/2007/08/pyRdfa/ | 11:49 |
| hdworak | I'll contact Dr. Herman when he's online | 11:50 |
| nathany | hdworak: what's mispelled? | 11:50 |
| nathany | it *does* expect a URI | 11:51 |
| hdworak | XHMTL (HM) | 11:51 |
| nathany | ah, i missed that | 11:51 |
| hdworak | :D | 11:51 |
| * nathany goes back to java land | 11:51 | |
| hdworak | paulproteus: help help | 11:51 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, Yes? I must have lost your questions in the noise. | 11:52 |
| hdworak | :( | 11:52 |
| hdworak | I'd like to understand this process of parsing with the yet-to-be-done validator | 11:53 |
| hdworak | someone uploads/links/pastes an XHTML page | 11:53 |
| hdworak | 1. we extract RDF/RDFa triples, yes? | 11:53 |
| paulproteus | Yes. | 11:53 |
| hdworak | 2. we scan for objects (of these triples) that contain the link to a valid CC license, yes? | 11:54 |
| paulproteus | Let's say we look through all the triples, and if it *should* link to a CC license, we check that it actually does. | 11:54 |
| hdworak | like http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/us/ | 11:55 |
| paulproteus | Right, but if it links to http://creativecommons.org/broken/link/ instead you should flag that. | 11:55 |
| hdworak | hm... | 11:55 |
| hdworak | what if it links to cr3ativecommons.org | 11:55 |
| paulproteus | ...flag it... | 11:56 |
| paulproteus | Also you should look for the other metadata embedding standards, like the old RDF in a comment, and show how to upgrade them. That much is in the proposal. | 11:56 |
| hdworak | as I said, we extract RDF/RDFa triples | 11:56 |
| paulproteus | Yes, I'm saying you should do more than just that in the long run. | 11:56 |
| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Extend_Metadata | 11:57 |
| hdworak | with the methods described there | 11:59 |
| hdworak | "in the head" RDF, "in the body" RDF, "data: URL" RDF, "linked external" RDF, "inside a comment" RDF | 12:00 |
| hdworak | once we extract RDF from this different means, its parsed in one and the same way? | 12:00 |
| hdworak | or do these methods have different RDF structure or something | 12:00 |
| hdworak | after extraction | 12:01 |
| paulproteus | No, same structure | 12:04 |
| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Extend_Metadata | 12:05 |
| hdworak | <cc:license rdf:resource="http://flf.org/licenses/whiteHouseLawn" /> | 12:05 |
| hdworak | should that be dc:license ? | 12:05 |
| paulproteus | Probably not. | 12:07 |
| paulproteus | Maybe there is no dc:license? | 12:07 |
| hdworak | ? | 12:07 |
| hdworak | http://dublincore.org/documents/usageguide/qualifiers.shtml#license | 12:08 |
| paulproteus | Oh, okay. | 12:08 |
| hdworak | they even link to cc | 12:08 |
| paulproteus | You'd have to check, but it might be rdf:sameAs cc:license. | 12:08 |
| paulproteus | cc: also has a license anyway. | 12:08 |
| hdworak | how about their second example | 12:08 |
| hdworak | license="Licensed for use under Creative Commons Attribution 2.0." | 12:09 |
| hdworak | Omniscience Validator? | 12:09 |
| paulproteus | hdworak, Here's how I feel about this discussion. | 12:09 |
| paulproteus | Are we writing the spec for your validator? | 12:09 |
| hdworak | no, I'm trying to understand what to do | 12:09 |
| hdworak | I do not have the experience with RDF/RDFa/cc licensing aside for a very basic usage (my home page) | 12:10 |
| hdworak | I'm trying to break the task into smaller chunks | 12:10 |
| paulproteus | Let's write this up on your wiki page then. | 12:10 |
| hdworak | but you have a Wiki page on this topic already | 12:11 |
| paulproteus | I'm going to bike to the office. | 12:11 |
| paulproteus | Can you do me a favor and write your questions on that wiki page while I'm out? | 12:11 |
| hdworak | which wiki page? | 12:11 |
| paulproteus | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Rewrite_Metadata_Validator/SoC_2008 | 12:11 |
| hdworak | maybe the soc one? | 12:11 |
| hdworak | ok | 12:11 |
| hdworak | ... | 12:12 |
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| paulproteus | http://dev.laptop.org/~cscott/ul_warning.png | 12:39 |
| hdworak | do not type with your feet | 12:40 |
| hdworak | nice 1 | 12:40 |
| hdworak | paulproteus: I'm writing a summary of tools on the Wiki atm | 12:40 |
| hdworak | paulproteus: I'll write the questions soon after | 12:40 |
| paulproteus | Great. | 12:41 |
| hdworak | I'd be grateful if we could discuss them today | 12:41 |
| paulproteus | Okay. | 12:41 |
| paulproteus | We probably will have time. | 12:41 |
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| paulproteus | Hey ankitg. | 12:49 |
| ankitg | Morning paulproteus ... I haven't really had the time to look into the S3 tools to my hearts content, have only tried two so far [including the suggested s3sync.rb] ...the s3sync seems to require an OpenSSl library which I can't seem to find ... | 12:49 |
| paulproteus | If you paste me the errors, I think I'll be able to help. | 12:50 |
| paulproteus | BTW, http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=2008020123070799 seems to think it has all the s3 tools you'll need. | 12:50 |
| ankitg | okie, let me fire up the mac and get back to you with the error message ... though from what I recall it basically said "the environment is not setup" | 12:51 |
| paulproteus | Just don't store a backup of your Mac on our S3! | 12:51 |
| ankitg | I will try my best not to mess things up ... | 12:51 |
| ankitg | (-: | 12:51 |
| hdworak | THAT OpenSSL library? | 12:51 |
| hdworak | http://www.openssl.org/ | 12:51 |
| ankitg | hdworak is that for Ruby? ... I was looking for a gem actually ... ? | 12:54 |
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| hdworak | http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/133991 | 12:57 |
| ankitg | paulproteus: the exact error message I get from s3cmd upon giving it listbuckets as a parameter is "You didn't set up the environment variables" | 12:57 |
| hdworak | I dunno, I have not used Ruby | 12:57 |
| ankitg | thx hdworak ... let me give that a try ... though I think I need to download the source before I can "make" it ... | 12:59 |
| ankitg | yep as expected, no such directory ... I need to download and put it there ... | 13:00 |
| ankitg | looking at this though, makes me realize there may be no gem, but a source file for it which I would need to download and compile ... | 13:01 |
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| hdworak | good luck | 13:03 |
| ankitg | hdworak: I downloaded the latest version from the openSSL site ... the archive won't even load O_o ... anyways, I'll try the tool asheesh just mentioned, though like all other S3 tools I've found so far, it's backup centric ... | 13:06 |
| hdworak | omg | 13:09 |
| hdworak | Mark Pilgrim also wrote Dive into Accesibility | 13:10 |
| hdworak | I've also forgot its author | 13:10 |
| hdworak | very impressive | 13:10 |
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| paulproteuss | sss | 13:14 |
| paulproteuss | Today's a low-tech day for me. | 13:14 |
| rejon | bovinity: what is so great about squirrelfish? | 13:15 |
| bovinity | rejon: apparently 3 times faster than the current JS engine in webkit | 13:16 |
| bovinity | rejon: i mean 1.6x. http://webkit.org/blog/189/announcing-squirrelfish/ | 13:17 |
| rejon | hot | 13:17 |
| ankitg | paulproteuss: thx, that was awesome ... this download had just the app I needed ... wonder why they don't ship it with the version on the authors' website ... anyways, I see the whole list of logs now. (-: | 13:17 |
| rejon | is there gears for webkit/safari yet...must be soon, those google engineers are gaga over webkit, not ankit | 13:17 |
| rejon | ;) | 13:17 |
| paulproteuss | ankitg, Okay, great. | 13:18 |
| paulproteuss | ankitg, So don't download all 100 gigs; download a few files and take a look, and start to figure out what you need. | 13:18 |
| paulproteuss | If you want to do batch computing on the logs, we can open up an Amazon EC2 instance. | 13:18 |
| ankitg | it says 25887 objects, 319.191 GB in the ccommons bucket ... | 13:19 |
| paulproteuss | Well, yeah, all 319 gigs I mean. (-: | 13:20 |
| ankitg | I would like to have a local copy, coz I will be traveling to India and i don't trust the internet speed there ... | 13:20 |
| paulproteuss | Do you really have room for all 300 gigs? | 13:20 |
| ankitg | I was planning on getting myself an external HDD and making a copy ... they are cheap now a days ... | 13:20 |
| ankitg | and it would speed things up and would give less room for messing up the originals ... | 13:21 |
| ankitg | I believe in redundancy when it comes to playing around with stuff ... | 13:21 |
| ankitg | I have 250+ GB free on an external right now ... | 13:23 |
| paulproteuss | nathany, OK if ankitg does that? Any idea what it would cost? | 13:24 |
| ankitg | and i think I don't need all the 319 GB, do I ? | 13:24 |
| nathany | paulproteuss: does what; download it all? | 13:25 |
| paulproteuss | Ya | 13:25 |
| nathany | (looking) | 13:25 |
| paulproteuss | 320GB download and 2000 PUT/GET requests (that is a total guess) make for about $50 | 13:25 |
| * paulproteuss shrugs | 13:25 | |
| paulproteuss | ankitg, No, that's the thing | 13:25 |
| nathany | yeah | 13:25 |
| paulproteuss | You won't need all 300 gigs. | 13:25 |
| nathany | i don't really understand *why* but it's fine as a one-shot deal | 13:26 |
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| paulproteuss | ankitg, Well there you go, ^^ (-: | 13:26 |
| nathany | (my complaint wrt not understanding implies that you should figure out why you need to first ;) ) | 13:26 |
| paulproteuss | You'll find that you have lots of data if you just grab a random sample of, say, 1% of them. | 13:26 |
| ankitg | hmmm ... let me see if I can find an easy way to filter out what is required and what's not ... coz I get the impression that there's a whole lot more in there than I really need, but then again, my project doesn't have to limited to those 4 logs (-: | 13:28 |
| paulproteuss | Yes, basically, spend some time figuring out what the data is. | 13:28 |
| paulproteuss | If you find it easiest to do that by downloading the whole data set and computing on it locally (which I can understand), say so and I'll say go ahead. | 13:30 |
| paulproteuss | But you'll find that it's divided up into sections, and that if you understand one file in a section you understand them all. | 13:30 |
| ankitg | okie, the data is nicely segregated into folder depending on which type of a log it ... I think I'll take one from each folder as a sample and I'll know what would be good to have then ... (-: | 13:30 |
| paulproteuss | Precisely. (-: | 13:30 |
| ankitg | yay, making progress! (-: | 13:31 |
| paulproteuss | (-: | 13:31 |
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| ankitg | okie, I need wrap up some other projects before I leave for India, it's good I have access to this now, once I've figured out which sections are relevant, would it be for me to make a local copy? | 13:32 |
| paulproteuss | Make a local copy of what you need, and what you might find useful. | 13:36 |
| paulproteuss | Don't do it unnecessarily, but if there's a reason, then do. | 13:36 |
| paulproteuss | nathany, Where is the CC Nagios again? | 13:37 |
| nathany | on a5 and a6 | 13:37 |
| paulproteuss | Great. | 13:37 |
| nathany | at /nagios2, IIRC | 13:37 |
| ankitg | yep, I'll let you know how much I'll be copying before I copy anything so you are aware ... | 13:37 |
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| paulproteuss | ankitg, Sure - the key is, I'm not asking you to ask permission, just to use some judgment. | 13:39 |
| paulproteuss | There's no point holding yourself totally back. | 13:39 |
| ankitg | thx, i'll take only what I need ... just want to play it safe and do whatever I need to do on a copy ... | 13:41 |
| ankitg | plus I will let you know how much I am taking so you know how much to expect in "damages" | 13:42 |
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| hdworak | ok, I've added two new sections to the article | 13:51 |
| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Rewrite_Metadata_Validator/SoC_2008 | 13:51 |
| hdworak | Related Web applications and Web framework and libraries | 13:51 |
| paulproteuss | nathany, Okay if I reboot a8 (first of a few)? | 13:55 |
| paulproteuss | All the web sites have transitioned off; there are 0 hits to Apache lately. | 13:55 |
| nathany | paulproteuss: i don't think i'm logged in, am i? | 13:55 |
| nathany | no reason not to afik | 13:55 |
| nathany | afaik, that is | 13:55 |
| paulproteuss | Okay, I call lock on a8 then. | 13:55 |
| paulproteuss | hdworak, Can you write up last paragraph on that page as bullet points? Then we can move them into your timeline. | 13:56 |
| paulproteuss | ...unless that's not what you need? | 13:56 |
| paulproteuss | Basically I'm confused as to what you need from me. | 13:56 |
| hdworak | but the timeline already mentions that | 13:57 |
| hdworak | it's just that we discuss the tools in the last paragraph | 13:57 |
| hdworak | I am to ask you some design-related questions | 13:57 |
| hdworak | I just didn't write them up yet | 13:57 |
| hdworak | (I said I'm gonna write about tools before writing them, because this is what I declared yesterday) | 13:58 |
| paulproteuss | Oh, okay, great. | 14:07 |
| rejon | whoa, wikia search update is pretty cool | 14:07 |
| hdworak | paulproteus: have I missed some tools in the Wiki article? | 14:09 |
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| hdworak | ccRdf most probably | 14:10 |
| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CcRdf_for_Python | 14:10 |
| hdworak | in this article: | 14:10 |
| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CcValidator | 14:10 |
| hdworak | You can download the tarball here. <--- there is no link | 14:11 |
| hdworak | "The current implementation is available is" | 14:11 |
| hdworak | and rdfExtract | 14:11 |
| hdworak | I might have missed it, too | 14:12 |
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| hdworak | the article http://wiki.creativecommons.org/RdfExtract | 14:13 |
| hdworak | contains a dead link (current source) | 14:13 |
| paulproteuss | nathany, Where has that gone? That would be very useful for hdworak actually. | 14:16 |
| paulproteuss | "that" == "rdfextract.py" | 14:16 |
| paulproteuss | BTW, you could import your old darcs projects into git (or ask me to). | 14:17 |
| hdworak | I've got the source code of ccValidator which has to include it | 14:17 |
| paulproteuss | hdworak, Oh, okay. | 14:17 |
| paulproteuss | That's good at least. | 14:17 |
| hdworak | but I'm just reporting misspells and broken links | 14:17 |
| hdworak | as it's the summer of spellchecking | 14:17 |
| paulproteuss | Well, it's the summer of wikis! | 14:17 |
| nathany | paulproteuss: yeah, i think the repos is currently on a box in a storage container somewhere in chicago | 14:18 |
| paulproteuss | nathany, That's exciting. | 14:18 |
| paulproteuss | You don't have a darcs clone of it anywhere, do you? | 14:18 |
| paulproteuss | (or whatever darcs calls a full-history checkout) | 14:18 |
| nathany | yeah, it would be if it were my unit (it's my friend Jeremy's) | 14:18 |
| nathany | i may have one on my laptop @ home | 14:18 |
| nathany | that code predates my full time employment @ CC | 14:18 |
| paulproteuss | I realize. | 14:18 |
| hdworak | we might call it a predator then | 14:18 |
| paulproteuss | (-: | 14:19 |
| hdworak | paulproteus: are you going to answer my questions on Wiki, too? | 14:23 |
| hdworak | 'cause if so, it's gonna be a bit official, like we had no IRC | 14:23 |
| hdworak | if not, it might be better to pastebin these questions somewhere, as they will remain unanswered | 14:23 |
| paulproteuss | hdworak, I haven't noticed questions on the wiki. | 14:25 |
| paulproteuss | Are there some? | 14:25 |
| paulproteuss | For questions whose answers need to be organized, I prefer to answer them on the wiki. | 14:25 |
| paulproteuss | But for just discussion stuff, IRC is fine. | 14:25 |
| paulproteuss | Somehow your reference to a pastebin confuses me. | 14:25 |
| paulproteuss | nathany, I'm going to reboot a8 into an amd64 userland now. | 14:26 |
| paulproteuss | Wish me luck. | 14:26 |
| nathany | good luck | 14:26 |
| hdworak | I haven't written them yet | 14:26 |
| hdworak | I do not have questions requiring organised answers, just a couple of short yes/no questions | 14:27 |
| paulproteuss | Oh, okay, then ask me again and I'll focus this time. | 14:27 |
| hdworak | :D | 14:27 |
| hdworak | what if someone misspells the predicate? xc:license dc:Lights ? | 14:28 |
| hdworak | ignore? | 14:28 |
| hdworak | or are we doing vAIdator? | 14:30 |
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| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Extend_Metadata | 14:45 |
| hdworak | "in HTML/XMTML" | 14:45 |
| paulproteuss | Okay, hi. | 14:45 |
| hdworak | another misspell | 14:45 |
| hdworak | hi, paulproteus | 14:45 |
| paulproteuss | That mispelling you can fix! | 14:45 |
| hdworak | what's up? | 14:45 |
| paulproteuss | it's a wiki after all. | 14:45 |
| hdworak | I know, I'm just pointing it out first, so you can see I'm reading/working | 14:45 |
| paulproteuss | hdworak, Ignore that, I guess. | 14:45 |
| hdworak | can I start asking questions? | 14:46 |
| paulproteuss | Yes. | 14:46 |
| hdworak | what if someone misspells object (of a license predicate)? http://xeativexommons.org/ | 14:47 |
| paulproteuss | That falls under, "All unknown values for the license predicate should be flagged." | 14:47 |
| paulproteuss | Which I now declare as a reasonable strategy for the validator, unless you disagree. | 14:47 |
| hdworak | ok, flagged | 14:48 |
| paulproteuss | Just like the W3C HTML validator flags mistakes. | 14:48 |
| hdworak | but do you agree that we cannot tell whether it is a misspell or whether it represents a VALID license? | 14:48 |
| paulproteuss | Well, we can try to later on. | 14:48 |
| hdworak | http://xeativexommons.org/ vs http://veryserious.org/ourlicenses/myblues/ | 14:48 |
| paulproteuss | We can do things like edit distance. | 14:48 |
| hdworak | levensthein? | 14:49 |
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| hdworak | soundex? | 14:49 |
| paulproteuss | Right, or even python's difflib's close_matches. | 14:49 |
| paulproteuss | So I would like to, but I admit that attempts to do that are going to be hazy guesses. | 14:49 |
| hdworak | ok, we found an OBJECT which has license predicate | 14:50 |
| hdworak | what do we show aside of the license itself? | 14:50 |
| hdworak | if it is a cc license, we show a human readable name + a link to the cc Web site with human readable stuff, right? | 14:50 |
| paulproteuss | We might as well show the license buttons, and we could actually validate that if they <img src> in any i.creativecommons.org buttons are for the same button. | 14:51 |
| paulproteuss | be back in a few minutes, lunch | 14:51 |
| hdworak | ... | 14:51 |
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| hdworak | paulproteus, have mercy | 15:47 |
| hdworak | it's almost 11pm here :) | 15:47 |
| paulproteuss | hdworak, back! | 15:48 |
| paulproteuss | Sorry! | 15:48 |
| hdworak | could we pls continue? | 15:48 |
| paulproteuss | Let's see. | 15:48 |
| paulproteuss | Yes! | 15:48 |
| hdworak | ok, so if we detect a license URI we check if it matches the cc images ? | 15:49 |
| hdworak | that are embedded on the page? | 15:49 |
| paulproteuss | That seems like a nice thing to do. | 15:51 |
| paulproteuss | So, sure. | 15:51 |
| hdworak | what if someone put an image only on his/her page, w/o any RDFa/RDF/links and thinks it's enough | 15:51 |
| hdworak | put=puts | 15:51 |
| paulproteuss | Then we should say it Fails Validation because it has no embedded metadata, but we did detect this image which means you should probably add this metadata: ______ | 15:51 |
| hdworak | ok, what else is shown if we do find a triple about cc license aside of the images? | 15:54 |
| paulproteuss | Well, information about the chosen license. | 15:56 |
| paulproteuss | There is RDFa on the license URI's page that would probably make for a good start. | 15:57 |
| hdworak | the one embedded in... a comment? | 15:58 |
| paulproteuss | No! The license web page itself has RDFa.... | 15:59 |
| hdworak | yes, I'm just looking at it | 15:59 |
| hdworak | there is RDF embedded in a comment | 15:59 |
| hdworak | plus this: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/rdf | 15:59 |
| paulproteuss | Well, basically, "show some information about the license" | 15:59 |
| hdworak | I'm looking at http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ | 15:59 |
| paulproteuss | Once we're showing something, we can easily change precisely what we show. | 16:00 |
| hdworak | but isn't it just better to link to this page: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ | 16:00 |
| hdworak | ? | 16:00 |
| hdworak | it's so user-friendly | 16:00 |
| paulproteuss | Well, sure - but when we say, "You have valid metadata!" I think we should also say: "Here is what that metadata says:" | 16:00 |
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| hdworak | ok, what about the other stuff like other triples of the same object | 16:01 |
| hdworak | we ignore them? | 16:01 |
| paulproteuss | Triples of the same object - can you explain what you mean by that? | 16:02 |
| hdworak | sure, like I would have | 16:03 |
| hdworak | <div xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"><h2 property="dc:title">The Trouble with Bob</h2> <a rel="license" href="cc.org">cc-by</a></div> | 16:04 |
| hdworak | does the license here belongs to the div or to the whole document? | 16:05 |
| paulproteuss | Oh, er, whatever the RDFa spec says. | 16:05 |
| paulproteuss | I don't remember myself. | 16:05 |
| paulproteuss | But it seems like, to the whole document. | 16:05 |
| hdworak | if I would id="foobar" with that div | 16:05 |
| paulproteuss | Well, here's the key - whatever statements the document makes, we should make very clear. | 16:06 |
| hdworak | but we care only about the license-related stuff? | 16:06 |
| hdworak | we ignore other RDF/RDFa-embedded information? | 16:06 |
| paulproteuss | Yes, *except* as it relates to the license stuff. | 16:07 |
| paulproteuss | So I mean, if someone uses a web page to declare that a separate URI has dc:title "Your mom" and license CC by 3.0 US then we should say, "You made these claims about this other document with license CC by 3.0 US: dc:title "Your mom" (etc) | 16:07 |
| paulproteuss | That's what makes sense to me. | 16:07 |
| hdworak | but this dc:title etc. is shown in a simple table? | 16:08 |
| paulproteuss | Sure, I think that makes sense. | 16:09 |
| hdworak | it's not like I'm starting to process dc:title as Title etc.? | 16:09 |
| paulproteuss | Yeah, I don't think you need to do that. | 16:09 |
| paulproteuss | If there's time at the end or feedback from people says they really want it, then maybe you would want to. | 16:10 |
| hdworak | what about this means: | 16:12 |
| hdworak | http://dublincore.org/documents/usageguide/qualifiers.shtml#license | 16:12 |
| hdworak | license="Licensed for use under Creative Commons Attribution 2.0." | 16:12 |
| hdworak | ignored? | 16:12 |
| hdworak | if someone describes the license in a human-readable, instead of a cc URI | 16:12 |
| paulproteuss | If they specify a dc:license but not as a URI, then we should flag it and say, "We want you to include a license attribute as a URI." | 16:12 |
| hdworak | http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Extend_Metadata | 16:15 |
| hdworak | what's the meaning of the "Defining dc:rights" in this document? | 16:15 |
| hdworak | this relates to the RDF associated with the LICENSE not with the SUBJECT of a license? | 16:16 |
| hdworak | is that correct? | 16:16 |
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| hdworak | bears reassemblence to http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/rdf | 16:16 |
| hdworak | or is the the kind of RDF that we can see inside a HTML comment on a Web site? | 16:18 |
| paulproteuss | Well, "RDF in a comment" is supposed to not be around anymore. | 16:18 |
| hdworak | yes, but I'm suppose to cover all the means, including deprecated | 16:18 |
| paulproteuss | I guess you might find RDF like that in a <link rel="meta"> | 16:18 |
| hdworak | and directly embedded in HEAD or BODY? | 16:18 |
| paulproteuss | I think this standard remains current. | 16:18 |
| hdworak | and data: URI | 16:18 |
| hdworak | so it would be an RDF like that? | 16:19 |
| paulproteuss | It's just that the only place that's a good idea to put it nowadays is <link rel="meta">/ | 16:19 |
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| paulproteuss | data: URI in the <link rel="meta"> would be okay nowadays, as would <link rel="meta" href="URL pointing to RDF like that"> | 16:19 |
| hdworak | so if one person would take all the code from here: | 16:20 |
| hdworak | http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/rdf | 16:20 |
| hdworak | and encode it to a data: URI | 16:20 |
| hdworak | it is just as good as linking to cc? | 16:20 |
| paulproteuss | Uh, I'm not sure. nathany, thoughts? | 16:20 |
| hdworak | from the semantic POV | 16:20 |
| paulproteuss | Hmm, I guess so. | 16:20 |
| nathany | no, its retarded | 16:20 |
| hdworak | because I want to imagine an example of such RDF | 16:20 |
| hdworak | with info about the license | 16:21 |
| nathany | because that URI only makes assertions about the license | 16:21 |
| nathany | it doesn't say *anything* about how the document is licensed | 16:21 |
| paulproteuss | Right, of course. | 16:21 |
| paulproteuss | And it's not a complete statement of the license. | 16:21 |
| nathany | (nevermind my general feeling that data: URIs are a little silly) | 16:21 |
| hdworak | ok, so is there an example of the RDF that was supposed to be there inside comments/head/body/data: uri | 16:22 |
| hdworak | ? | 16:22 |
| hdworak | because if it's not http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/rdf and it's not the code from the third example from http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Extend_Metadata | 16:22 |
| hdworak | which bear a strikinig reassemblance | 16:22 |
| hdworak | then I do not know how such RDF should look like | 16:23 |
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| hdworak | the top level is rdf:Description | 16:23 |
| hdworak | in the example form wiki we reference the license using cc:license | 16:24 |
| hdworak | form=from | 16:24 |
| hdworak | :( | 16:27 |
| paulproteuss | I'm trying to understand the question, hold on. | 16:27 |
| paulproteuss | I have the feeling that it's not a blocker for you to continue somewhat; you can mark this down as TBD and we can ask nathany when he comes back. | 16:27 |
| paulproteuss | Is that okay for now? | 16:28 |
| hdworak | I'm gonna try to decode this data: URI | 16:29 |
| paulproteuss | BTW, where are you recording these answers? It feels a lot like we're writing the spec. | 16:29 |
| hdworak | from the Wiki | 16:29 |
| hdworak | because it's probably the answer | 16:29 |
| hdworak | paulproteus: we have a log from this channel, don't we? | 16:29 |
| hdworak | I'm noting all the answers ofc | 16:29 |
| hdworak | ok, using http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/dencoder/ | 16:30 |
| hdworak | the data URI yielded http://pastebin.com/f143f5fdf | 16:30 |
| paulproteuss | "ofc"? | 16:31 |
| paulproteuss | We do have a log, but these questions are forming a spec that should go on your SoC page. | 16:31 |
| paulproteuss | They'll be useful for writing test cases. | 16:31 |
| hdworak | ofc = of course | 16:31 |
| paulproteuss | Okay, great;. | 16:31 |
| hdworak | so if I see such an RDF | 16:32 |
| hdworak | I try to retrieve information about the licences | 16:32 |
| paulproteuss | "retrieve" by downloading http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.0/ and http://www.eff.org/IP/Open_licenses/eff_oal.html ? | 16:32 |
| hdworak | and the rest of the data (dc:creator, dc:description) about the object goes into a table | 16:32 |
| hdworak | well, that's what I'm asking | 16:32 |
| paulproteuss | Well, truth be told, you'll probably be able to look up information about CC licenses in the CC licenses' RDF files without crawling them every time someone makes a request. | 16:33 |
| paulproteuss | That is to say, you'll have a copy of the CC licenses' data in RDF sitting on disk next to your application. | 16:33 |
| paulproteuss | All you really need to do for a validator is tell if the license attributes point to a valid CC license. | 16:33 |
| hdworak | what are the possible methods to embed license info in an RSS feed? | 16:35 |
| hdworak | are there any examples? | 16:36 |
| hdworak | is anybody doing it? | 16:36 |
| paulproteuss | wiki.creativecommons.org/Syndication | 16:36 |
| paulproteuss | I think blip.tv is doing it. | 16:36 |
| hdworak | ok, so RSS 1.0 and Atom 1.0 uses rel="license" | 16:38 |
| hdworak | and RSS 2.0 a qualified name | 16:39 |
| hdworak | and the methods listed on Wiki are the only ones we check, is that right? | 16:39 |
| hdworak | (when it comes to feeds) | 16:39 |
| hdworak | or are there any secret unlisted methods left? | 16:39 |
| hdworak | or historical, deprecated ones? | 16:39 |
| paulproteuss | I think here, we only check the ones listed on the wiki. | 16:40 |
| hdworak | what other filetypes should the validator handle? | 16:40 |
| hdworak | I know about http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Category:Filetype | 16:41 |
| hdworak | but what should it handle | 16:41 |
| paulproteuss | Most of Category:Filetype can be handled by liblicense, anyway, which you can easily hook into at some point. | 16:41 |
| paulproteuss | I think just web stuff, so just feeds + web pages + RDF. | 16:41 |
| hdworak | liblicense? | 16:41 |
| paulproteuss | liblicense is a project of mine (former intern project, actually) that can read license info out of lots of media files. | 16:41 |
| paulproteuss | It has Python bindings. | 16:42 |
| hdworak | ok | 16:42 |
| hdworak | feed+Web pages+RDF | 16:42 |
| hdworak | so we ignore other well-formed XML? | 16:42 |
| hdworak | the validator can say: | 16:42 |
| hdworak | "sorry, but this isn't RSS, ATOM, HTML, XHTML, or RDF" | 16:43 |
| paulproteuss | Oh, interesting. I guess if it has assertions, then you could handle it. But that's fairly Low Priority. | 16:43 |
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| paulproteuss | So it's up to you - what I suggest is decide not to handle it at first, and then toward the end if there's time think about doing it. | 16:43 |
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| nathany | paulproteuss: what're the odds that just reconfiguring the jdk on a8 will "heal" it? :) | 16:45 |
| paulproteuss | nathany, It needs healage? | 16:45 |
| nathany | (and what's the flag to dpkg to reconfigure) | 16:45 |
| paulproteuss | dpkg-reconfigure $package | 16:45 |
| nathany | nathan@a8:~$ /usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun/bin/java -version | 16:45 |
| nathany | Error: no `client' JVM at `/usr/lib/jvm/java-1.5.0-sun-1.5.0.14/jre/lib/amd64/client/libjvm.so'. | 16:45 |
| paulproteuss | a8:/var/www# java | 16:45 |
| paulproteuss | -su: java: command not found | 16:45 |
| hdworak | ok, so it all can be parsed from direct input | 16:45 |
| hdworak | 'cause they are all text formats, not binary | 16:45 |
| hdworak | how many levels of crawling can we have? | 16:46 |
| paulproteuss | hdworak, I don't know, start at 3 and we'll see if we ever need to exceed that. | 16:46 |
| * paulproteuss shrugs | 16:46 | |
| paulproteuss | That's a question where you can make a decision without asking me, and mention the decision you made later. | 16:47 |
| hdworak | someone pastes a link to a Web page he/she wants to check | 16:47 |
| hdworak | that Web page has a link to RDF (as <link rel="meta") | 16:47 |
| hdworak | we download that (crawl depth 2) | 16:47 |
| hdworak | now that RDF has a cc URI to a license | 16:47 |
| hdworak | we download that (crawl depth 3) - if it's not on HDD already | 16:48 |
| hdworak | is there anything else missing? something that can be depth 4 ? | 16:48 |
| paulproteuss | nathany, I fixed java | 16:50 |
| paulproteuss | I just purged and reinstalled the package. | 16:50 |
| nathany | thank you | 16:50 |
| paulproteuss | I copied over /etc/ wholesale. | 16:50 |
| paulproteuss | hdworak, Nothing I can think of, but you should log an error if you happen to need deeper than that. | 16:50 |
| paulproteuss | nathany, BTW | 16:51 |
| hdworak | ok | 16:51 |
| paulproteuss | I didn't copy the tomcat stuff back in - I don't know what directories they are. | 16:51 |
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| hdworak | are RDFa tools/parsers helpful when it comes to RDF parsing and vice-versa (RDF parsers for RDFa)? | 16:51 |
| paulproteuss | RDFa parsers are good for getting data into RDF data model libraries. | 16:51 |
| paulproteuss | You'll notice that librdfa links to libraptor. | 16:51 |
| paulproteuss | nathany, If you list directories for me, I can restore them from /usr or /var or wherever. | 16:52 |
| paulproteuss | Or you can yourself, if you prefer. | 16:52 |
| hdworak | ok | 16:54 |
| hdworak | so RDFa to RDF and then parse RDF like it was there from the very beginning? | 16:54 |
| paulproteuss | Exactly. | 16:54 |
| hdworak | ok | 16:55 |
| hdworak | I've got no more questions written as for now | 16:55 |
| hdworak | thanks for all the answers | 16:55 |
| hdworak | they helped me to understand your expectations better | 16:55 |
| paulproteuss | hdworak, Okay, great - now please record these on the wiki or something! | 16:55 |
| hdworak | will do, but not tonight | 16:55 |
| hdworak | :) | 16:55 |
| hdworak | it's midnight | 16:56 |
| paulproteuss | Okay (-: | 16:56 |
| paulproteuss | nathany, You can run (I won't): | 16:57 |
| paulproteuss | a8:~# /pull-from-ia32.sh /usr/local/nutch | 16:57 |
| paulproteuss | It should work according to your expectations. | 16:57 |
| nathany | thanks | 16:57 |
| ankitg | It's almost 6 am here ... c'mon Hugo! (-: | 16:57 |
| paulproteuss | lol, ankitg! | 16:58 |
| ankitg | and I am at the lab in Uni even ... on Mibbit coz my Uni blocks / throttles / does something bad to IRC ... | 16:59 |
| paulproteuss | ankitg, jhu.edu blocks IRC. | 16:59 |
| hdworak | ankitg: I use to do that a couple of years ago | 16:59 |
| paulproteuss | It was pretty evil of them. | 16:59 |
| hdworak | ankitg: now I know it doesn't make sense | 16:59 |
| paulproteuss | But you should email network security and explain that you need it for your summer internship with us. | 16:59 |
| paulproteuss | Don't tell them about mibbit, just annoy them. | 16:59 |
| hdworak | ankitg: I guess I become an oldgeezer | 16:59 |
| ankitg | paulproteuss: i'll do that when I come back from India, I should be fine when I am there (-: | 17:00 |
| paulproteuss | ankitg, Well, might as well email them before you go to give them time to twiddle their thumbs. | 17:00 |
| ankitg | sure ... | 17:01 |
| ankitg | maybe I'll CC you for good measure ... as if to say, see it's legit, I am not cooking stuff up :P | 17:01 |
| nathany | paulproteuss: is this expected? | 17:01 |
| nathany | h$ sudo /pull-from-ia32.sh /usr/local/nutch | 17:02 |
| nathany | Going to rescue /usr/local/nutch in two seconds... | 17:02 |
| nathany | Control-c now if you dislike that plan. | 17:02 |
| nathany | mv: cannot move `/ia32//usr/local/nutch' to `/ia32.trash/16245./home/nathan/oenutch': No such file or directory | 17:02 |
| nathany | nathan@a8:~/oenutch$ | 17:02 |
| paulproteuss | nathany, /me gulps | 17:02 |
| paulproteuss | Hah, not really. | 17:02 |
| nathany | :) | 17:02 |
| paulproteuss | A typo on my part, but not a big deal. | 17:02 |
| * paulproteuss fixes | 17:02 | |
| nathany | ok | 17:02 |
| paulproteuss | (fixed; no need to re-run the script; it did the copy okay) | 17:02 |
| nathany | uh | 17:02 |
| nathany | no | 17:03 |
| nathany | there is no /usr/local/nutch :) | 17:03 |
| paulproteuss | oops | 17:03 |
| paulproteuss | It put it in $PWD/nutch | 17:03 |
| nathany | oh, is it because it's a symlink? | 17:03 |
| nathany | hrm | 17:03 |
| paulproteuss | Typo again, fixing. | 17:03 |
| paulproteuss | And it copies, not moves, so this isn't a big deal (-; | 17:03 |
| nathany | uh, which $PWD? | 17:03 |
| nathany | i don't see it | 17:03 |
| paulproteuss | Well try it again anyway. | 17:04 |
| paulproteuss | I think it should work this time. | 17:04 |
| paulproteuss | Oh, wait, the "mv" will error out again. | 17:04 |
| paulproteuss | Yeah, wait. | 17:04 |
| nathany | uh, ok :) | 17:04 |
| paulproteuss | Name another directory to import. | 17:06 |
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| nathany | paulproteuss: that's the only one i know of (although it does appear to have followed the link instead of preserving it) | 17:10 |
| nathany | not a big deal in this case | 17:10 |
| paulproteuss | Okay (oops) | 17:10 |
| paulproteuss | Interestingly I think /etc/alternatives may not quite be right also. | 17:11 |
| paulproteuss | Not in any dangerously terrible way as far as I can see. | 17:11 |
| paulproteuss | Varnish and Apache are up. | 17:15 |
| nathany | great | 17:16 |
| nathany | i'm working on restoring the tomcat stuff | 17:16 |
| nathany | (rebuilding from an up to date checkout) | 17:16 |
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| paulproteuss | Great. I could move the sites back, but that isn't interesting to me anymore so I'll do it later tonight. | 17:17 |
| nathany | ok | 17:17 |
| paulproteuss | nathany, done - I just "mv"d them. | 17:21 |
| nathany | paulproteuss: thanks much! | 17:21 |
| nathany | paulproteuss: nutch still seems borked but i'll fix (just fyi in case you're fixing your script) | 17:22 |
| paulproteuss | Nope, I'm abandoning my script for now. | 17:22 |
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| paulproteuss | nathany, Oh, stand? | 17:25 |
| nathany | yes, 2 min | 17:26 |
| paulproteuss | Great, just IRC ping me | 17:26 |
| hdworak | bye! | 17:30 |
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