Thursday, 2010-06-17

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alabdGood day all , one site has used wikipedia materials and humble trying to use second material , should humble write wikipedia as source or second website ?04:58
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paulproteuslotia: I'm going to eat breakfast at at 7AM to make sure I have time to get back to MSU.05:39
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alabd Good day all , one site has used wikipedia materials and humble trying to use second material , should humble write wikipedia as source or second website ?06:44
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alabdany opinion ?08:03
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MegaBurnhow "incompatible" is cc-by and cc-by-sa with LGPL/GPL? -- I'm setting up a wiki which will include a large amount of source code, much of it snippets, as I understand the legal issues among licenses I think each chunk of code would need to be explicitly licensed under LGPL/GPL via wiki templates or comments, this is problematic to maintain in a wiki where the global default license is cc-by-sa or cc-by (dependent on name08:12
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alabdGood day all , one site has used wikipedia materials and humble trying to use second material , should humble write wikipedia as source or second website ?09:28
MegaBurnif its a verbatim copy from wikipedia then that would be the source and technically the 'work' covered by the license, with wikipedia contributes as credits (per their own 'last edit' policy), if its a derivative created by someone on the second site then that would be the 'work', with wikipedia as a credit09:37
MegaBurnor at least thats my understanding of it, i'm not a lawyer09:38
alabdMegaBurn: regard to this
alabdattrubution part10:26
alabdhumble mean when other websites use wikipedia materials legally and attribute the material to wikipedia , when humble use those websites materials should humble attribute to wikipedia yet ?10:41
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greg-gpaulproteus: nyergler: so, just double checking, are both of you coming into A2 tonight and will both/just one of you be staying at my place? Just confirming so we know what to expect. No biggie either way (infact, just more sadness if you both don't show up)13:58
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nyerglergreg-g, lotia is giving paulproteus a ride to A2 and I'm heading down I-69 to my parents' place in Indiana14:04
nyerglerso I will not be joining you in A2 this evening :/14:04
greg-gnyergler: ahhhh, gotcha. Well, we'll just have more sadness then.14:04
nyerglergreg-g, sorry to hear that ;)14:05
greg-gnyergler: it was good seeing you though, hopefully again soon.14:05
nyerglerlikewise :)14:05
paulproteusA2.... is that like A9?14:10
paulproteusOh, Ann Arbor!14:10
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alabdGood day all , when other websites use wikipedia materials legally and attribute the material to wikipedia , when humble use those websites materials should humble attribute to wikipedia yet or should attribute to these website ?14:13
paulproteusalabd: "those website", not WIkipedia14:13
paulproteus(I am not a laywer; this is not legal advice; I had a nice breakfast.)14:13
alabdwhat does wikipedia license say humble mean ? paulproteus thanks14:15
paulproteusalabd: I've never seen that word in a CC license.14:15
paulproteusOr any Wikipedia license.14:16
alabdwhich word ?14:19
paulproteusThe word humble.14:19
paulproteusIf you mean, what does the license say in general, I suggest reading it yourself.14:20
paulproteusLook for a section discussing attribution.14:20
paulproteusThat's the authoritative source, not me on IRC chat. (-:14:20
paulproteusBut you're supposed to (generally) attribute the original author of a work (someone on Flickr or some original website) not a republisher (like Wikipedia).14:21
alabdhumble means(i)14:21
alabdhumble = i14:21
paulproteusI don't understand, but did the above help?14:21
alabdthanks you mean humble should check external links at to find original authors ?14:22
paulproteusWhat work are you trying to re-use?14:24
paulproteusThat page, or some (e.g.) image on that page?14:25
paulproteusYou might find helpful!14:25
paulproteusI misunderstood your question before.14:25
alabdno maybe you understood right14:27
paulproteusAnyway, that page has the Wikipedia policy.14:27
alabdsee website 2 used material and cited to wikipedia14:27
alabdno humble want use website 2 material14:27
alabdBY in cc-sa-by says that you should attribute to original author14:29
alabdnow who is original other of
paulproteus explains what to do14:29
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alabdthanks and humble want use website 2 material(that has used wikipedia materials) , should not humble go and read their license instead of wikipedia ?14:32
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alabdpaulproteus:  can not get what humble(i) should do would you guide me ?15:09
paulproteusalabd: Yes. Read
paulproteusIt explains what to do.15:14
alabdyes read it but did not got for example part attribution there15:15
alabdshould we comply    a , b , c  all ?15:15
alabdor one of those a, b, and c phrases paulproteus ?15:17
paulproteusWhat is a, b, and c15:18
alabdattribution part of
paulproteusEither (a) (b) or (c), at your choice15:19
alabdthanks a lot god peace you15:27
alabdbye 4 now15:28
alabdpaulproteus:  sorry you mean both a and b   or c yes ?15:29
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MegaBurn...are there any guidelines for using CC-BY-SA and LGPL/GPL together? I keep seeing references to how the two are incompatible, how GPL is for code while CC is content, but there is a growing 'niche' where that approach simply doesn't work - FOSS game development...17:36
luisvexcellent question.17:38
* luisv wishes someone would actually write out an analysis of that problem17:38
MegaBurnwith games the content is part of the program, yet at community development level the bulk of the free resources needed to create games is under cc-by-sa17:38
MegaBurnI'm starting on one but I really wish a lawyer would address it17:39
luisvyeah, that is sort of what I meant, though a careful non-lawyer could probably do a good job of it, especially if they sought out feedback on some of the cc lists17:40
* greg-g wishes he had the time for it, it has been a burning question of mine as well17:40
MegaBurnat the moment I'm just trying to figure out how to handle licensing on a wiki, needs to balance importing content from WP, about a dozen game dev wikis, and content dev for GPL game projects, best I can tell each page will need a different license statement17:40
luisvpain :(17:41
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luisvwhen you say 'content dev', you're saying you're going to try to do that in the wiki?17:41
MegaBurnprobably the most annoying thing to me is realizing they wanted to deal with the cc-by-sa vs gpl incompatibility back in '05 yet didin't in cc3.017:42
luisvto be fair, that is probably in part because gpl-compatibility is Hard17:42
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* luisv should probably be beating his head against that particular wall right now instead of hanging out in IRC17:43
luisvMegaBurn: what is the project?17:44
MegaBurnOpenGameForge, , #opengameforge17:45
MegaBurnits been in a 'just getting started' state for 3 years17:46
MegaBurnprobably not the best way to introduce it... the goal is trying to find a functional application of FOSS to game development via a "by the community for the community" model combined with a platform approach to counter the longevity issues with games, FOSS apps can be used for years, games by their very nature burn out very rapidly yet require even more work to develop17:50
luisvtough hill to climb.17:50
luisvI might suggest looking at what the fedora wiki does; I seem to recall that new accounts there have to agree that wiki content is CC-something and any code is [some code license.] May be simpler than some complicated per-page thing.17:52
MegaBurnshould have noticed that, I follow their gaming SIG17:53
luisvit has been a while for me, I may be misremembering/confusing it with their other licensing practices17:53
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MegaBurnfigures Fedora would have an entire namespace dedicated to legal issues17:58
luisvto be fair to them, with that much code floating around, they do have to pay attention18:00
paroneayeathis conversation about (L)GPL code and CC BY-SA or etc licensing stuff with games has come up before18:09
paroneayeaand has come up a few times recently18:09
paroneayeabut I don't think anyone's done a "formal" analysis of it, to my knowledge18:09
paroneayeait still seems to be that the division is considered Code is software license, Data is data license, and they are two separate layers18:10
paroneayeaI think that's partly historical18:10
luisvI imagine you could finesse things to claim that the GPL's 'work' doesn't extend to the data the work reads in18:11
luisvbut that seems... um... messy18:11
paroneayeaQuake in some ways set a precedent a long time ago in releasing code that was GPL and data that was proprietary18:11
paroneayeaand at that time nobody questioned it, but I think also that free culture works were just starting to be paid attention to at that point18:12
paroneayeaI was looking at the sourcecode of this game, Frogatto18:12
paroneayeaand in that case the data is the code and the code is the data for enemy scripting and levels18:13
paroneayeabecause the code is embedded in INI files that also contain character data and character scripting18:13
paroneayeaI think in cases like that it might be harder to distinguish18:13
paroneayeaon another note, the frogatto scripts / levels / enemy files are really gross looking :)18:14
paroneayeasourcecode inside of ini files?  bleh18:14
MegaBurnthats typical for game logic, campaign scripts, all sorts of object behavior.....and well most of what makes the 'game' a program rather than 'data' for some sort of game engine platform 'program'18:18
MegaBurnthats part of the headache with cc-by-sa vs gpl18:18
paroneayeathe community norms still seems to be that when the files are clearly divided between data and code, they're separate licensing layers18:19
paroneayeait's when they're intertwined that that gets messy18:19
luisvthe community norm in this area, AFAICT, is 'mass confusion' :)18:20
MegaBurnseems like it18:20
MegaBurnand its only getting worse, now its common for games to be entirely coded and have the game data defined in lua or python18:23
MegaBurnfactor in stuff like procedural generation systems with some sort of wrapper then even the models and audio end up as compiled code instead of a simple data file18:25
luisvthat sounds like you could keep a lawyer employed for a long time figuring that out18:26
MegaBurnnah, solution -> remove cc-by-sa vs gpl conflict18:26
paroneayeathat's not very easy either.18:27
paroneayeafirst of all you've got the BY bit18:27
luisvthat's many lawyers employed for a longer time ;)18:27
paroneayeawhich (see old BSD issues)18:27
MegaBurnand cc-by for that matter18:27
paroneayeawould stop it right there18:27
paroneayeabut also the licenses I think have other things that would make that difficult18:27
paroneayeaI think in an ideal world though, we'll see *more* integration of free culture + free software intertwined18:28
paroneayeaso it is an important issue to keep thinking about18:28
luisvCC4+GPL3.5 should have a klatsch18:31
luisvlock RMS and Lessig in a room ;)18:31
paroneayeaat the same time there have been a lot of questions lately about the BY-SA license in regards to the Ryzom release18:32
paroneayeaTheAncientGoat was telling me about them in #freegamer recently and also someone was trying to figure out if you could use a BY-SA model in a proprietary level18:33
paroneayeathey released a *TON* of content as BY-SA18:34
paroneayeaso in the BY-SA license there's the interpretation of a derivative work:18:34
paroneayealook at "Adaptation" vs "Collection"18:34
paroneayeaif you take a BY-SA model and put it in a proprietary level, is it a derivative?18:35
paroneayeadoesn't matter too much because the ryzom developers don't mind if you do they said but18:35
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paroneayeaI had a private conversation with someone who said they wanted to do that, and I said it probably didn't reflect the community to say you can use a BY-SA license in a proprietary level18:36
paroneayeahe was saying though that a level full of only linked models could be considered a collection rather than an adaptation18:36
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paroneayeawhich I thought was curious, but probably clearly wrong, as that's what the clarifications on musical works, performances, etc were trying to prevent18:37
paroneayeaanyway, another curious licensing question raised by foss gaming stuff18:38
paroneayeanot that licensing stuff is actually my role whatsoever here, but :)18:39
paroneayeaI find those to be some interesting questions18:39
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paroneayeaJED3: hey19:54
paroneayeaso if you're waiting to make that blogpost, sorry... I'm just carefully testing things before bringing sanity live right now19:55
paroneayeaso I'm going through every URL manually just to double check19:55
paroneayeaI'll let you know when I'm done19:55
JED3paroneayea: np, take your time19:56
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paulproteusd00dz and d00dettes, the OpenHatch summer of code student wrote
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paroneayeahm very curious20:21
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paroneayeankinkade: all of the files that get run through the translation machinery work fine except they produce a lang="st" line that doesn't translate right20:22
nkinkadeparoneayea: Why do you think that is?20:24
paroneayeankinkade: do you know of anything funny about the st language?  It's missing a lot of translations20:24
paroneayeaeg it doesn't have util.universal20:24
paroneayeadoesn't have either20:25
paroneayeaeverything else does20:25
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nkinkadeparoneayea: I'm not sure how that lang got in there.  Presumably through ZA?20:28
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paroneayealooks like it's been around since at least 200720:34
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nkinkadeparoneayea: ZA = South Africa.  Sorry.20:40
nkinkadeI'm almost thinking we should disable that language somehow.20:41
nkinkadeVirtually nothing appears to be translated anyway.20:41
nkinkadeYet it's linked to at the top of all the Deeds.20:41
nkinkadenyergler would probably know more.20:41
nkinkade... about Sotho (st), that is.20:41
nkinkadeWhy it's there, what to do with it, etc.20:42
nyerglernkinkade, paroneayea the south africa team did a whole slew of translations (including st)20:47
nyerglerthey haven't been updated (but they're no less updated than many others, IIRC)20:47
paroneayeaI wonder why the default msgids aren't being passed to the .po file at least?20:48
paroneayeafor those new ones20:48
paroneayeaer, default translations20:48
* paroneayea can't phrase things right20:48
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greg-gpaulproteus: if you're still online and can see this before you travel: I'm going to go for a run, so if I don't answer my phone, no worries, I listen to my messages when I get back21:11
luisvam I being dense? I thought that CC-BY included some TM language, but I can't for the life of me see any such.21:13
luisvwas I just making that up?21:13
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paulproteusgreg-g: Great, thanks for that!21:41
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greg-gpaulproteus: if you're still online (again). So, I haven't left for a run yet, going to now. Ali knows the way to my house, just go inside if you beat me back. Door on the left side of the house, upstairs. Make yourself comfortable22:25
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paroneayeaoh that's interesting.23:35
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