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| alabd | Good day all , one site has used wikipedia materials and humble trying to use second material , should humble write wikipedia as source or second website ? | 04:58 |
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| paulproteus | lotia: I'm going to eat breakfast at http://www.yelp.com/biz/golden-harvest-restaurant-lansing at 7AM to make sure I have time to get back to MSU. | 05:39 |
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| alabd | Good day all , one site has used wikipedia materials and humble trying to use second material , should humble write wikipedia as source or second website ? | 06:44 |
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| alabd | any opinion ? | 08:03 |
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| MegaBurn | how "incompatible" is cc-by and cc-by-sa with LGPL/GPL? -- I'm setting up a wiki which will include a large amount of source code, much of it snippets, as I understand the legal issues among licenses I think each chunk of code would need to be explicitly licensed under LGPL/GPL via wiki templates or comments, this is problematic to maintain in a wiki where the global default license is cc-by-sa or cc-by (dependent on name | 08:12 |
| MegaBurn | space) | 08:12 |
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| alabd | Good day all , one site has used wikipedia materials and humble trying to use second material , should humble write wikipedia as source or second website ? | 09:28 |
| MegaBurn | if its a verbatim copy from wikipedia then that would be the source and technically the 'work' covered by the license, with wikipedia contributes as credits (per their own 'last edit' policy), if its a derivative created by someone on the second site then that would be the 'work', with wikipedia as a credit | 09:37 |
| MegaBurn | or at least thats my understanding of it, i'm not a lawyer | 09:38 |
| alabd | MegaBurn: regard to this http://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%DB%8C%DA%A9%DB%8C%E2%80%8C%D9%BE%D8%AF%DB%8C%D8%A7:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_3.0_Unported_License | 10:26 |
| alabd | attrubution part | 10:26 |
| alabd | humble mean when other websites use wikipedia materials legally and attribute the material to wikipedia , when humble use those websites materials should humble attribute to wikipedia yet ? | 10:41 |
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| greg-g | paulproteus: nyergler: so, just double checking, are both of you coming into A2 tonight and will both/just one of you be staying at my place? Just confirming so we know what to expect. No biggie either way (infact, just more sadness if you both don't show up) | 13:58 |
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| nyergler | greg-g, lotia is giving paulproteus a ride to A2 and I'm heading down I-69 to my parents' place in Indiana | 14:04 |
| nyergler | so I will not be joining you in A2 this evening :/ | 14:04 |
| greg-g | nyergler: ahhhh, gotcha. Well, we'll just have more sadness then. | 14:04 |
| nyergler | greg-g, sorry to hear that ;) | 14:05 |
| greg-g | nyergler: it was good seeing you though, hopefully again soon. | 14:05 |
| nyergler | likewise :) | 14:05 |
| paulproteus | A2.... is that like A9? | 14:10 |
| paulproteus | Oh, Ann Arbor! | 14:10 |
| paulproteus | Right-o. | 14:10 |
| greg-g | :) | 14:11 |
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| alabd | Good day all , when other websites use wikipedia materials legally and attribute the material to wikipedia , when humble use those websites materials should humble attribute to wikipedia yet or should attribute to these website ? | 14:13 |
| paulproteus | alabd: "those website", not WIkipedia | 14:13 |
| paulproteus | (I am not a laywer; this is not legal advice; I had a nice breakfast.) | 14:13 |
| alabd | what does wikipedia license say humble mean ? paulproteus thanks | 14:15 |
| paulproteus | alabd: I've never seen that word in a CC license. | 14:15 |
| paulproteus | Or any Wikipedia license. | 14:16 |
| alabd | which word ? | 14:19 |
| paulproteus | The word humble. | 14:19 |
| paulproteus | If you mean, what does the license say in general, I suggest reading it yourself. | 14:20 |
| paulproteus | Look for a section discussing attribution. | 14:20 |
| paulproteus | That's the authoritative source, not me on IRC chat. (-: | 14:20 |
| paulproteus | But you're supposed to (generally) attribute the original author of a work (someone on Flickr or some original website) not a republisher (like Wikipedia). | 14:21 |
| alabd | humble means(i) | 14:21 |
| alabd | humble = i | 14:21 |
| paulproteus | I don't understand, but did the above help? | 14:21 |
| alabd | thanks you mean humble should check external links at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system to find original authors ? | 14:22 |
| paulproteus | What work are you trying to re-use? | 14:24 |
| paulproteus | That page, or some (e.g.) image on that page? | 14:25 |
| paulproteus | You might find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reusing_Wikipedia_content helpful! | 14:25 |
| paulproteus | I misunderstood your question before. | 14:25 |
| alabd | no maybe you understood right | 14:27 |
| paulproteus | Anyway, that page has the Wikipedia policy. | 14:27 |
| alabd | see website 2 used wikipedia.org material and cited to wikipedia | 14:27 |
| alabd | no humble want use website 2 material | 14:27 |
| alabd | BY in cc-sa-by says that you should attribute to original author | 14:29 |
| alabd | now who is original other of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system | 14:29 |
| paulproteus | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reusing_Wikipedia_content#Re-use_of_text_under_Creative_Commons_Attribute_Share-Alike explains what to do | 14:29 |
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| alabd | thanks and humble want use website 2 material(that has used wikipedia materials) , should not humble go and read their license instead of wikipedia ? | 14:32 |
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| alabd | paulproteus: can not get what humble(i) should do would you guide me ? | 15:09 |
| paulproteus | alabd: Yes. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reusing_Wikipedia_content#Re-use_of_text_under_Creative_Commons_Attribute_Share-Alike | 15:14 |
| paulproteus | It explains what to do. | 15:14 |
| alabd | yes read it but did not got for example part attribution there | 15:15 |
| alabd | should we comply a , b , c all ? | 15:15 |
| alabd | or one of those a, b, and c phrases paulproteus ? | 15:17 |
| paulproteus | What is a, b, and c | 15:18 |
| paulproteus | ? | 15:18 |
| alabd | attribution part of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reusing_Wikipedia_content#Re-use_of_text_under_Creative_Commons_Attribute_Share-Alike | 15:18 |
| paulproteus | Either (a) (b) or (c), at your choice | 15:19 |
| alabd | thanks a lot god peace you | 15:27 |
| alabd | bye 4 now | 15:28 |
| alabd | paulproteus: sorry you mean both a and b or c yes ? | 15:29 |
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| MegaBurn | ...are there any guidelines for using CC-BY-SA and LGPL/GPL together? I keep seeing references to how the two are incompatible, how GPL is for code while CC is content, but there is a growing 'niche' where that approach simply doesn't work - FOSS game development... | 17:36 |
| luisv | excellent question. | 17:38 |
| * luisv wishes someone would actually write out an analysis of that problem | 17:38 | |
| MegaBurn | with games the content is part of the program, yet at community development level the bulk of the free resources needed to create games is under cc-by-sa | 17:38 |
| MegaBurn | I'm starting on one but I really wish a lawyer would address it | 17:39 |
| luisv | yeah, that is sort of what I meant, though a careful non-lawyer could probably do a good job of it, especially if they sought out feedback on some of the cc lists | 17:40 |
| * greg-g wishes he had the time for it, it has been a burning question of mine as well | 17:40 | |
| MegaBurn | at the moment I'm just trying to figure out how to handle licensing on a wiki, needs to balance importing content from WP, about a dozen game dev wikis, and content dev for GPL game projects, best I can tell each page will need a different license statement | 17:40 |
| luisv | pain :( | 17:41 |
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| luisv | though | 17:41 |
| luisv | when you say 'content dev', you're saying you're going to try to do that in the wiki? | 17:41 |
| MegaBurn | probably the most annoying thing to me is realizing they wanted to deal with the cc-by-sa vs gpl incompatibility back in '05 yet didin't in cc3.0 | 17:42 |
| MegaBurn | yeah | 17:42 |
| luisv | to be fair, that is probably in part because gpl-compatibility is Hard | 17:42 |
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| * luisv should probably be beating his head against that particular wall right now instead of hanging out in IRC | 17:43 | |
| luisv | MegaBurn: what is the project? | 17:44 |
| MegaBurn | OpenGameForge, http://www.opengameforge.org , #opengameforge | 17:45 |
| MegaBurn | its been in a 'just getting started' state for 3 years | 17:46 |
| MegaBurn | probably not the best way to introduce it... the goal is trying to find a functional application of FOSS to game development via a "by the community for the community" model combined with a platform approach to counter the longevity issues with games, FOSS apps can be used for years, games by their very nature burn out very rapidly yet require even more work to develop | 17:50 |
| luisv | Oof. | 17:50 |
| luisv | tough hill to climb. | 17:50 |
| MegaBurn | yep | 17:51 |
| luisv | I might suggest looking at what the fedora wiki does; I seem to recall that new accounts there have to agree that wiki content is CC-something and any code is [some code license.] May be simpler than some complicated per-page thing. | 17:52 |
| MegaBurn | hmm | 17:52 |
| MegaBurn | should have noticed that, I follow their gaming SIG | 17:53 |
| luisv | it has been a while for me, I may be misremembering/confusing it with their other licensing practices | 17:53 |
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| MegaBurn | figures Fedora would have an entire namespace dedicated to legal issues | 17:58 |
| luisv | haha | 17:58 |
| luisv | indeed | 17:58 |
| luisv | to be fair to them, with that much code floating around, they do have to pay attention | 18:00 |
| paroneayea | this conversation about (L)GPL code and CC BY-SA or etc licensing stuff with games has come up before | 18:09 |
| paroneayea | and has come up a few times recently | 18:09 |
| paroneayea | but I don't think anyone's done a "formal" analysis of it, to my knowledge | 18:09 |
| paroneayea | it still seems to be that the division is considered Code is software license, Data is data license, and they are two separate layers | 18:10 |
| paroneayea | but | 18:10 |
| paroneayea | I think that's partly historical | 18:10 |
| luisv | I imagine you could finesse things to claim that the GPL's 'work' doesn't extend to the data the work reads in | 18:11 |
| luisv | but that seems... um... messy | 18:11 |
| paroneayea | Quake in some ways set a precedent a long time ago in releasing code that was GPL and data that was proprietary | 18:11 |
| paroneayea | and at that time nobody questioned it, but I think also that free culture works were just starting to be paid attention to at that point | 18:12 |
| paroneayea | yeah | 18:12 |
| paroneayea | I was looking at the sourcecode of this game, Frogatto | 18:12 |
| paroneayea | and in that case the data is the code and the code is the data for enemy scripting and levels | 18:13 |
| paroneayea | because the code is embedded in INI files that also contain character data and character scripting | 18:13 |
| paroneayea | I think in cases like that it might be harder to distinguish | 18:13 |
| paroneayea | on another note, the frogatto scripts / levels / enemy files are really gross looking :) | 18:14 |
| paroneayea | sourcecode inside of ini files? bleh | 18:14 |
| MegaBurn | thats typical for game logic, campaign scripts, all sorts of object behavior.....and well most of what makes the 'game' a program rather than 'data' for some sort of game engine platform 'program' | 18:18 |
| MegaBurn | thats part of the headache with cc-by-sa vs gpl | 18:18 |
| paroneayea | yeah | 18:18 |
| paroneayea | the community norms still seems to be that when the files are clearly divided between data and code, they're separate licensing layers | 18:19 |
| paroneayea | it's when they're intertwined that that gets messy | 18:19 |
| luisv | the community norm in this area, AFAICT, is 'mass confusion' :) | 18:20 |
| MegaBurn | seems like it | 18:20 |
| MegaBurn | and its only getting worse, now its common for games to be entirely coded and have the game data defined in lua or python | 18:23 |
| MegaBurn | factor in stuff like procedural generation systems with some sort of wrapper then even the models and audio end up as compiled code instead of a simple data file | 18:25 |
| luisv | boy | 18:26 |
| luisv | that sounds like you could keep a lawyer employed for a long time figuring that out | 18:26 |
| paroneayea | :) | 18:26 |
| MegaBurn | nah, solution -> remove cc-by-sa vs gpl conflict | 18:26 |
| paroneayea | that's not very easy either. | 18:27 |
| luisv | yeah | 18:27 |
| paroneayea | first of all you've got the BY bit | 18:27 |
| luisv | that's many lawyers employed for a longer time ;) | 18:27 |
| paroneayea | which (see old BSD issues) | 18:27 |
| MegaBurn | and cc-by for that matter | 18:27 |
| paroneayea | would stop it right there | 18:27 |
| paroneayea | but also the licenses I think have other things that would make that difficult | 18:27 |
| paroneayea | I think in an ideal world though, we'll see *more* integration of free culture + free software intertwined | 18:28 |
| paroneayea | so it is an important issue to keep thinking about | 18:28 |
| luisv | CC4+GPL3.5 should have a klatsch | 18:31 |
| luisv | lock RMS and Lessig in a room ;) | 18:31 |
| paroneayea | at the same time there have been a lot of questions lately about the BY-SA license in regards to the Ryzom release | 18:32 |
| luisv | ryzom? | 18:32 |
| paroneayea | TheAncientGoat was telling me about them in #freegamer recently and also someone was trying to figure out if you could use a BY-SA model in a proprietary level | 18:33 |
| paroneayea | yeah | 18:33 |
| paroneayea | http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/21906 | 18:33 |
| paroneayea | they released a *TON* of content as BY-SA | 18:34 |
| paroneayea | so in the BY-SA license there's the interpretation of a derivative work: | 18:34 |
| paroneayea | http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/legalcode | 18:34 |
| paroneayea | look at "Adaptation" vs "Collection" | 18:34 |
| paroneayea | if you take a BY-SA model and put it in a proprietary level, is it a derivative? | 18:35 |
| paroneayea | doesn't matter too much because the ryzom developers don't mind if you do they said but | 18:35 |
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| paroneayea | I had a private conversation with someone who said they wanted to do that, and I said it probably didn't reflect the community to say you can use a BY-SA license in a proprietary level | 18:36 |
| paroneayea | he was saying though that a level full of only linked models could be considered a collection rather than an adaptation | 18:36 |
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| paroneayea | which I thought was curious, but probably clearly wrong, as that's what the clarifications on musical works, performances, etc were trying to prevent | 18:37 |
| paroneayea | anyway, another curious licensing question raised by foss gaming stuff | 18:38 |
| paroneayea | not that licensing stuff is actually my role whatsoever here, but :) | 18:39 |
| paroneayea | I find those to be some interesting questions | 18:39 |
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| paroneayea | JED3: hey | 19:54 |
| paroneayea | so if you're waiting to make that blogpost, sorry... I'm just carefully testing things before bringing sanity live right now | 19:55 |
| paroneayea | so I'm going through every URL manually just to double check | 19:55 |
| paroneayea | I'll let you know when I'm done | 19:55 |
| JED3 | paroneayea: np, take your time | 19:56 |
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| paulproteus | d00dz and d00dettes, the OpenHatch summer of code student wrote https://openhatch.org/blog/2010/google-summer-of-code-project-training-missions/ | 20:11 |
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| paroneayea | hm very curious | 20:21 |
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| paroneayea | nkinkade: all of the files that get run through the translation machinery work fine except they produce a lang="st" line that doesn't translate right | 20:22 |
| paroneayea | http://staging.creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/rdf | 20:22 |
| nkinkade | paroneayea: Why do you think that is? | 20:24 |
| paroneayea | nkinkade: do you know of anything funny about the st language? It's missing a lot of translations | 20:24 |
| paroneayea | eg it doesn't have util.universal | 20:24 |
| paroneayea | doesn't have country.vn either | 20:25 |
| paroneayea | everything else does | 20:25 |
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| nkinkade | paroneayea: I'm not sure how that lang got in there. Presumably through ZA? | 20:28 |
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| paroneayea | ZA? | 20:30 |
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| paroneayea | looks like it's been around since at least 2007 | 20:34 |
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| nkinkade | paroneayea: ZA = South Africa. Sorry. | 20:40 |
| paroneayea | ah | 20:40 |
| nkinkade | I'm almost thinking we should disable that language somehow. | 20:41 |
| nkinkade | Virtually nothing appears to be translated anyway. | 20:41 |
| nkinkade | Yet it's linked to at the top of all the Deeds. | 20:41 |
| paroneayea | weird | 20:41 |
| nkinkade | nyergler would probably know more. | 20:41 |
| nkinkade | ... about Sotho (st), that is. | 20:41 |
| nkinkade | Why it's there, what to do with it, etc. | 20:42 |
| nyergler | nkinkade, paroneayea the south africa team did a whole slew of translations (including st) | 20:47 |
| nyergler | they haven't been updated (but they're no less updated than many others, IIRC) | 20:47 |
| paroneayea | I wonder why the default msgids aren't being passed to the .po file at least? | 20:48 |
| paroneayea | for those new ones | 20:48 |
| paroneayea | er, default translations | 20:48 |
| * paroneayea can't phrase things right | 20:48 | |
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| greg-g | paulproteus: if you're still online and can see this before you travel: I'm going to go for a run, so if I don't answer my phone, no worries, I listen to my messages when I get back | 21:11 |
| luisv | am I being dense? I thought that CC-BY included some TM language, but I can't for the life of me see any such. | 21:13 |
| luisv | was I just making that up? | 21:13 |
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| paulproteus | greg-g: Great, thanks for that! | 21:41 |
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| greg-g | paulproteus: if you're still online (again). So, I haven't left for a run yet, going to now. Ali knows the way to my house, just go inside if you beat me back. Door on the left side of the house, upstairs. Make yourself comfortable | 22:25 |
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| paroneayea | oh that's interesting. | 23:35 |
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