Monday, 2009-11-23

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paroneayeahello #cc!19:09
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greg-gquiet week, I predict19:30
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paroneayea     ////19:32
paroneayea    /o-o-\  - We need to keep the19:32
paroneayea    \ =  /    accelerator at full capacity,19:32
paroneayea    /|-/| \   or else we'll all perish in19:32
paroneayea   |\| |/| |  the resulting fallout!19:32
greg-goh, and after I talk I miss a near-instant reply since I thought it wasn't worthwhile to wait for one :)19:40
greg-gbut, good to know we'll probably have robots to keep ourselves entertained while we pretend we're working before Thanksgiving19:46
mralexunfortunately i can't pretend to work before thanksgiving19:46
mralexso i'll be here19:46
greg-gmralex: taking time off this week?19:47
* greg-g has been ignoring those types of cc-staff emails19:47
mralexgreg-g: thursday and friday ;)19:47
greg-gah, I see now, :)19:48
paroneayeaI am working!  The majority of my robots are premanufactured.19:49
paroneayearobots on demand19:49
JED3paroneayea: ever worked with Twisted?19:49
paroneayea          _  _19:49
paroneayea         |o||o|19:49
paroneayea    o---/ ____ \---o19:49
paroneayea   /   / [/\/\] \   \19:49
paroneayea  /   (   ----   )   \19:50
paroneayea/[|]\  \________/  /[|]\19:50
paroneayea\ | /   | |  | |   \ | /19:50
paroneayea       /__|  |__\19:50
paroneayeaJED3: yes19:50
paroneayeait was pretty early on in my python programming experience though19:50
JED3oh ok19:50
paroneayeahowever it influenced me enough to consider making sure that the asynchronous system I am working on now is nothing like it19:50
paroneayeaTwisted: everything is confusing and I am sorry but we don't have much documentation19:51
JED3yeah i have that same complaint right now19:51
paroneayeawhat are you working on? :)19:51
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paroneayeaz3p in #miro-hackers is a twisted dev19:51
paroneayeaso he might be able to assist19:52
JED3a service that will scrape and store content at a URL and also generate a thumbnail of how the page would normally render19:52
nnnnnthere is a work under this lincence   after reading there doesn't seem to be any provisions stopping me from printing a book with the authors names attached and a coppy of that licence and selling it, is there something else I'm missing19:53
paroneayeayikes, why use twisted for that?19:53
JED3because i need to asynchronously perform those operations19:54
paroneayea may be useful?19:55
paroneayeathough that's >= 2.619:55
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paroneayeaI am guessing what you need is callbacks and etc though19:55
paroneayeadid I mention I am working on a pythonic implementation of the actor model that is asynchronous and doesn't suck? ;)19:56
paroneayeait is not ready for #cc usage though yet19:56
JED3...this is for the web citations of CC Network19:56
JED3ehh yeah, I've played with that as well19:56
JED3oh yeah?19:57
paroneayeawell, maybe you can do something like run a separate daemon that takes events via d-bus or something19:57
paroneayeaand that way you can handle the asynchronous stuff outside of your application but still have the ability to wake things back up19:57
paroneayeaI have no idea what the code needs for this are though so I probably sound rediculous over here :)19:58
paroneayeannnnn: legally no, morally maybe: you probably would want to distribute some of those funds back to the original authors if it proves lucrative19:59
paroneayeaor, legally "probably not"19:59
paroneayeaJED3: curious, can you point me to the place in the code where you're doing this?20:00
JED3hmm, yeah20:00
paroneayeaI am curious to look at it if you don't mind20:00
nnnnnwhy wouldn't i be able to i read the licence it says it's free to distribute as long as its not in a locked format, a book is scannable and coppiable easly, and has all authors name plus the licence attached to it20:01
greg-gnnnnn: you are correct, you can print the book and sell it and make billions of dollars off of it and not give a penny to the original author. All legal.20:01
paroneayeaI meant, legally, probably not anything restricting you20:01
paroneayeanot probably not able to20:02
JED3paroneayea: line 8320:02
JED3before responding I'll need to issue a request to begin the cache and tubmnailing operations20:03
JED3but i do not want to block the http response there20:03
nnnnnparoneaya, why would I not be able to? people purchase books all the time. this work seems to be quite good as I read though it20:04
paroneayeannnnn: I think we are having a miscommunication here, probably my fault20:05
paroneayeannnnn: I was saying, yes you can do such a thing as long as you comply with the license and cite the authors and give any derivatives you make back20:05
paroneayeannnnn: however, if you make a significant amount of money, you may wish to consider repaying the original authors, for moral reasons20:06
paroneayeaJED3: so if you don't want to block the http response20:06
paroneayeaone option is to actually "push" to a daemon which can actually do all that crunching20:07
paroneayeaand then on the user side you can have the browser poll the server via javascript to ask when the actual data is finished being processed and etc20:07
JED3well thats what I was planning on, at least that latter half20:07
paroneayeayou could probably poll and check the status of the daemon via d-bus, and just have the daemon itself use the threading and Queue modules to crunch through the stuff20:09
JED3for the daemon, I was imagining a twisted app that would accept a url for crunching, do some basic error checking (pape exists, robot allowed, etc) and return back a URI to where the resource will be located once its completed processing20:09
paroneayeawhy use twisted though?  you don't really need callbacks20:10
paroneayeaprobably easier to use threading + the Queue module20:10
paroneayeayou just need the daemon to be able to handle crunching multiple imports at a time, right?20:10
JED3maybe you're right, I'm not really arguing for the use of Twisted, just trying to fulling explain the story20:10
JED3paroneayea: correct20:11
paroneayeayeah I know, I'm just trying to offer a solution that's probably easier than twisted, which loves to make things all complicated it seems :)20:11
paroneayeaif the user is polling the server anyway via javascript20:11
paroneayeayou could actually just have the crunching thread when it finishes update the field in the database20:12
paroneayeasetting some boolean to true20:12
paroneayeasaying that it finished20:12
paroneayeaor updating whatever field20:12
paroneayeathat way the daemon never needs to send any information back to the django http server20:12
paroneayeathe user is polling django anyway, django might as well just poll its own database to see if things finished20:13
JED3yeah, thats true20:14
JED3i'd like to keep things as decoupled as possible20:14
paroneayeaa noble goal :)20:14
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paroneayeawhy does redland rdf stuff suck so much sometimes20:26
paroneayeaI mean, sometimes when you have a multi-condition where clause20:26
paroneayeait takes 5 minutes20:26
JED3paroneayea: are you using sparql?20:26
JED3may i see the query?20:26
paroneayea    qstring = "\n".join(20:27
paroneayea        ["PREFIX cc: <>",20:27
paroneayea         "SELECT ?license ?jurisdiction",20:27
paroneayea         "WHERE {",20:27
paroneayea         "  ?license cc:jurisdiction ?jurisdiction .",20:27
paroneayea         "  ?license cc:licenseClass <%s> }" % selector.uri])20:27
paroneayeait isn't just this though:20:27
paroneayeaany time you end up doing a where clause like say:20:27
paroneayea?license rdf:type cc:License .20:27
paroneayea?license cc:licenseClass <>20:28
paroneayeanot sure if that works but let's pretend for a second20:28
paroneayeathat's a simple query, and eventually it resolves20:28
paroneayeabut it will take 5 minutes20:28
paroneayearunning either/or of them will be instantaneous20:28
paroneayeahell, running both of them, putting them in set(), then doing intersect20:28
JED3and you see variances in time for the same graph?20:28
paroneayeait always takes a long time20:29
paroneayeafor certain queries20:29
paroneayeathe example I gave above though, of rdf:type and cc:licenseClass20:29
JED3hmm thats odd20:29
paroneayeathat's an example I gave nathan a while ago20:29
paroneayeaand he was like, I have no idea why this is so slow, weird20:30
paroneayeaI guess, I mean, I could investigate20:30
paroneayeabut right now that doesn't seem like a time-priority20:30
paroneayeaconsidering I suspect it would be an entirely complex codebase to throw myself into20:30
JED3my god, redland's bug tracker is giving me a headache20:30
JED3paroneayea: so the same certain queries consistently take long to execute?20:31
JED3have you tried testing them as RDQL query strings?20:32
nkinkademralex: Would you remind me where the template for the PCP pages is?20:32
paroneayeaI haven't, maybe I should20:32
paroneayeamaybe it is related to this:
paroneayeaalso I like how they have the winzip icon there20:32
paroneayeafor the attached file20:33
mralexnkinkade: sites/default/civicrm_templates/CRM/Contribute/Page/PCPInfo.tpl20:33
paroneayeaas an aside, just mentioning the word "winzip" makes me nostalgic for swapping around windows 95 shareware games on floppy disks with my friends.20:34
JED3paroneayea: heh20:34
paroneayeaI'll try restructuring it as RDQL query strings, good idea20:35
JED3one of your robots from last week had me thinking of Mech Warrior20:35
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nkinkadeJED3: Do we still use a user's registered name at PayPal for the official name on their acount?20:52
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JED3nkinkade: no we do not20:54
paroneayeaJED3: thanks for pointing me to RDQL, I actually had not really looked at it yet before now :)20:54
paroneayeaIt's a lot cleaner looking than SPARQL20:54
nkinkadeJED3: So once a user has registered, how can they change their user's name?20:54
JED3nkinkade: are you referring to their username or their actual names?20:55
nkinkadeJED3: I'm referring to their User's name, not the name in their profile.20:55
JED3the username cannot be changed20:56
nkinkadeI know in the past we forced the name to be the one on their PayPal account.20:56
nkinkadeJED3: Not the login name, but the First and Last of their User.20:56
JED3ahh, we no longer store that information and do not allow the legacy users that have that information stored to edit it20:57
nkinkadeJED3:  Is that information exposed anywhere in the interface at all?20:57
nkinkadeDid you see the webmaster@ email where they guy was saying that the First and Last were incorrect and wondered how to change it?20:58
nkinkadeI can see that what he is saying is right, but didn't know what our policy on that was.20:58
JED3yes, that name will appear on their profile page20:58
nkinkadeIf it exists?20:58
nkinkadeBut for new users that information will not exists and so simply won't be displayed?20:59
JED3you can manually change their names in our admin interface20:59
nkinkadeJED3: So do I just remove that information from his account altogether?20:59
JED3which i'll do and reply to ChrisWhite20:59
nkinkadeJED3: Thanks.20:59
JED3yeah i'm just going to remove it20:59
JED3we have since left that goal of trying to achieve some level of "assured identity" on CC Network21:00
JED3that same guy also reported an OpenID bug so he's in my reply queue for the day21:03
paroneayeahm, still takes forever :\21:05
paroneayeaat this point I am better off fetching all licenses that match that licenseclass21:05
paroneayeathen doing a list comprehension to get their jurisdictions21:06
paroneayeawhich, I guess for now, is what I will do :P21:06
paroneayeayup, tried that, it was instantaneous21:09
paroneayeaso stupid.21:09
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nnnnnhave people bought creative common books before or not really?21:36
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akozakmralex, If I wanted to use some tab stuff in jquery on the cclearn productions page, would the best way to do that be to create a page template that would load the core and tabs js files and ready tabs()?22:16
akozakor does that have to be doen in header.php?22:16
akozakHmm, this might be a bigger project than I thought...22:18
mralexakozak: you should be able to put the necessary script tags at the top of the productions page edit box22:22
mralexWPMU may strip them though.22:23
akozakah ok. and it it does, then a template is necessary right?22:23
akozakif it*22:23
mralexthen you'll have to add to header.php yeah22:23
akozakok thanks22:26
akozakthe productions page is getting a bit unwieldy22:26
nkinkadeJED3: Do you know anything about troubleshooting OpenID logins with
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CaptSolocould you tell me who developed the CC RDF schema?23:20
* CaptSolo wondering if its author is on IRC23:20
nkinkadeJED3: ^^^23:22
JED3nkinkade: yeah, I was going over that bug report email again23:22
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JED3nkinkade: have you looked at it yet?23:22
nkinkadeJED3: I haven't.  NRY is the one who usually handles those.23:23
nkinkadeI know nothing of the OpenID implementation for and how to troubleshoot it.23:23
nkinkadeIf you don't either, then I'll just create a ticket, assign it to NRY and reply to the person saying that the dev. is on vacation but will get to it next week.23:23
JED3nkinkade: give me an hour, I'll look at it now23:24
nkinkadeJED3: Will you reply to the guy then?23:24
nkinkadeJust want to figure out whether I can remove it from my inbox or if I'll need to do more on it. :-)23:25
JED3yeah, if i can't figure it out, i'll file the bug and send him a reply23:25
nkinkadeCool.  Thanks.23:25
JED3no prob, thanks for reminding me23:25
JED3CaptSolo: do you have a question involving ccREL?23:26
CaptSoloJED3: i do23:28
CaptSoloJED3: i am exploring how lightweight ontologies/schemas such as ccREL and FOAF are developed23:28
CaptSoloand wanted to ask how was ccREL developed23:29
nkinkadeHey JED3.  Weren't we going to be moving /join from to
CaptSoloJED3: who would be the best person to ask?23:30
JED3nkinkade: yes, I guess now that we have OneClick we could do that very easily23:30
nkinkadeJED3: Was that the plan, though?  I forgot?23:31
CaptSolothere is no contact info mentioned on the ccREL wiki page or the HTML page about the RDF schema. but there is a list of names/emails on the "ccREL: The Creative Commons Rights Expression Language" paper linked to from the wiki.23:31
JED3CaptSolo: Nathan Yergler is who you're looking for23:31
CaptSolothanks, will email him23:32
CaptSolois he on IRC as well?23:32
nkinkadeCaptSolo: Usually, but he's on vacation right now.23:32
JED3CaptSolo: normally in here as nathany23:32
CaptSolonkinkade: ow, then it might not be that easy to reach him on email either. but i will try.23:33
CaptSolothanks! :)23:33
nkinkadeCaptSolo: You might want to email the cc-devel mail list.23:33
JED3nkinkade: I believe that *was* the plan, and I would say it should still be if its not, but I don't know definitively either23:33
nkinkadeNathan is on that list, along with a number of us.23:33
nkinkadeJED3: We can wait till NRY gets back to move forward on that.23:34
nkinkademralex: Can you think of any reason that the links on /join point to the normal donation receipt instead of the CC Network receipts.  I'm nearly 100% sure it's an error, but just wanted to ask you before I changed it.23:36
mralexnkinkade: sounds like an error23:37
nkinkadeFixing now.23:37
nkinkadeI don't know how that one got past us.23:37

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