Wednesday, 2009-09-02

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jibotnathany is teh preacher of teh gozpl of teh Ceiling Cat and witness to teh menny divine miraclz of Ceiling Cat01:35
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jibotJoiIto is blogging at & Jonkichi (A) & Tasmanian (H) on Eitrigg (US) on WoW & I'm sure he'll be pleased to know he is once again in jeanniecool's good graces & All hail supreme ruler of the channel! (Trumpets!) & was internet famous more than once & some guy & the healthiest guy in the # & down with the dog that looks like a Panda & easy to add to trusted devices if you pretend t be Tom Coates. & the synthesis of idealism and capitalism & at ht01:56
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jibotnathany is teh preacher of teh gozpl of teh Ceiling Cat and witness to teh menny divine miraclz of Ceiling Cat02:02
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jibotmlinksva is from Creative Commons and Mike Linksvayer02:50
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jibotpyrak is Parker Phinney and and a sophomore at Dartmouth and a former CC tech intern07:47
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jibotmlinksva is from Creative Commons and Mike Linksvayer13:05
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paroneayeamorning #cc14:06
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jibotmlinksva is from Creative Commons and Mike Linksvayer14:18
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jibotnathany is teh preacher of teh gozpl of teh Ceiling Cat and witness to teh menny divine miraclz of Ceiling Cat15:04
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jibotjgay is
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nkinkadenathany: Sorry about the call this morning.  I have no excuse whatsoever other than I simply blanked.16:38
nathanynkinkade: no worries16:39
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jibotakozak is Alex Kozak, Program Assistant at ccLearn and SFC@Berkeley co-founder and a norse god16:44
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jibotJoiIto is blogging at & Jonkichi (A) & Tasmanian (H) on Eitrigg (US) on WoW & I'm sure he'll be pleased to know he is once again in jeanniecool's good graces & All hail supreme ruler of the channel! (Trumpets!) & was internet famous more than once & some guy & the healthiest guy in the # & down with the dog that looks like a Panda & easy to add to trusted devices if you pretend t be Tom Coates. & the synthesis of idealism and capitalism & at ht17:21
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jibotJoiIto is blogging at & Jonkichi (A) & Tasmanian (H) on Eitrigg (US) on WoW & I'm sure he'll be pleased to know he is once again in jeanniecool's good graces & All hail supreme ruler of the channel! (Trumpets!) & was internet famous more than once & some guy & the healthiest guy in the # & down with the dog that looks like a Panda & easy to add to trusted devices if you pretend t be Tom Coates. & the synthesis of idealism and capitalism & at ht17:23
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jibotveeliam is William Lawrence <> and does webstuff with his quiddities. Really. & William Lawrence of Quiddities Dev out of Santa Cruz & he does something at & here & there & has so much time to do things and only a few things to do in that time.18:16
jibotI've forgotten all about veeliam18:18
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akozakpaulproteus: could use a couple minutes of your time if you have them18:48
akozakwondering why all the sidebox code on opened references volatile/, but it's nowhere to be found18:49
* paulproteus blinks18:49
akozaki'm trying to run your update script18:49
akozakbecause apparently hte frontpage boxes aren't updating18:50
paulproteusNow's not a good time, but 10min from now might be18:50
paulproteusOtherwise a few hours18:50
akozakyea, not totally urgent18:50
akozakjust that I don't think anyone but you would be able to help :)18:50
akozaki might get it figured out before then18:50
jibotI've forgotten all about nathany18:55
akozaki accidentaly the whole thing19:02
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jibotJoiIto is blogging at & Jonkichi (A) & Tasmanian (H) on Eitrigg (US) on WoW & I'm sure he'll be pleased to know he is once again in jeanniecool's good graces & All hail supreme ruler of the channel! (Trumpets!) & was internet famous more than once & some guy & the healthiest guy in the # & down with the dog that looks like a Panda & easy to add to trusted devices if you pretend t be Tom Coates. & the synthesis of idealism and capitalism & at ht19:20
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akozakpaulproteus: would your script break if there is an empty initial row in the csv? I was able to get the script to work by parsing a local csv with that first line removed19:33
akozakpaulproteus: don't worry about this if you're busy, it'll get resolved one way or the other... just hoping you might be able to answer all of my problems off the top of your head :_19:35
akozak:) rather19:35
akozakparoneayea: have a spare minute?19:45
akozakneed someone who knows python for a quick fix19:45
akozakor troubleshoot19:45
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akozaknathany: ^^ i might be able to fix this if I knew what needed to be done, but since the problem isn't obvious to me I can't hack it19:59
nathanyugh, i hate cc learn's tracker with it's dumbass passwd auth20:01
paroneayeaakozak: oops, sorry, missed this20:01
akozakyea, I wouldn't have done that. might have been ahrash who wanted that?20:01
nathanyakozak: of course it was; i hate it no less20:01
nathanyakozak: so it sounds like there's a blank line @ the start of the CSV?20:02
akozaknathany: yea, but that isn't the problem20:02
akozakI tested with a local copy of that csv20:02
akozakwith the blank line20:02
akozakand it generated ok20:02
akozakin my home dir on a6 results.csv has no blank first row and results2.csv does20:03
nathanyakozak: so is this code in git?20:03
akozaknathany: yes I think so, opened_scripts20:04
nathanyakozak: how are you running it against local data?20:06
akozakusing open('results.csv')20:08
akozakand then passing that through the parser20:08
akozakon a620:08
akozakline 15 is where I commented out the urlopen20:09
akozakother then that, the script is the same20:10
nathanyakozak: i don't know why the script is working with local data + blank first row; the traceback you provide seems to be clearly related to the blank row20:11
nathanylet me look @ the csv docs20:11
akozakuhhhh ok I might have made a mistake20:12
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nathanyakozak: try changing line 16 to:20:15
akozaknathany: yea my fault20:15
akozakit was the blank line20:15
nathanyreader = csv.reader(data, skipinitialspace=True)20:15
nathanyakozak: good to know i'm not crazy :)20:15
akozaki looked back and when i scp'ed I used the wrong source file :(20:16
akozaknathany: doesn't seem to work20:17
nathanyakozak: as in it gives the same error?20:17
akozaknathany: yes20:17
akozakI also tried adding in if row.startswith(''): continue20:18
akozakbut I don't actually know python yet :)20:18
nathanyit's not even getting there because it tries to expand the tuple in the for statement20:18
akozakah ok20:18
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nathanyakozak: what URL do you give on the command line to run the script?20:21
nathany(against opened)20:21
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akozakasheesh wrote a few line shell script to do it, but the meat of it is python > <filename>.html20:22
nathanyakozak: thakns20:22
akozakcheck /home/paulproteus/cronjobs for the script20:22
nathanyakozak: I just pushed a fix20:23
akozaknathany: ok, to where?20:25
akozakok awesome, thanks nathany I'll take a look20:26
nathanyparoneayea: the others seem to be missing this afternoon (JED is off)20:28
nathanyis there anything you and I should talk about?20:28
akozaknathany: is there anywhere I need to pull that fix so that it executes as a cronjob, or do I need to make it a job myself?20:29
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nathanyakozak: well you'll need to pull it to wherever the checkout runs20:30
nathanyer, wherever the job runs20:30
nathanyright now it's just in the repository20:30
nkinkadenathany: Meeting?20:30
nathanynkinkade: sure, we should quickly20:30
akozaknathany: yea, but it looks like it runs in asheesh's home dir20:30
nkinkadeMy Internet connection went down.20:30
akozakcan I just sudo pull?20:30
nathanyparoneayea, care to join us on the conference line20:30
nathanyakozak: you can try :)20:31
nkinkadeI've got my laptop tethered through my Freerunner. :-)20:31
nathanyconference line?20:31
nkinkade+1 Freerunner20:31
nkinkade+1 GPRS20:31
nkinkade[shhh.  don't tell AT&T]20:31
nkinkadeConference line is fine.20:32
nkinkadeIRC is seamless over a tethered GPRS connection.20:32
nathanynkinkade: great; i'm waiting :)20:33
nathanysmooooth jazz20:33
nkinkadeDid you think I'd try Skype over GPRS? :-)20:34
nathanyi wouldn't be surprised20:34
paroneayeanathany: shit20:37
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paroneayeairc over ssh == no notifications :<20:43
nathanyparoneayea: no worries (really)20:46
paroneayeanathany: if we're going to be changing the location of all these rdf files and etc within this package20:54
paroneayeabut also rebasing this on top of master, which will automatically get rdf files pulled in and etc20:54
paroneayeawon't that kind of break things?20:54
paroneayeasince in the new branch we'll have theoretical file rdf/foo.xml -> cc/license/rdf/foo.xml20:55
nathanyparoneayea: the short answer is "i'm not sure"20:55
paroneayeabut in master we'll update rdf/foo.xml with a new copy20:55
paroneayeaah ok :)20:55
nathanymy understanding of rebasing is that it rolls back the changes you made in your branch until it gets to a common rev with the base (master)20:56
nathanythen it plays the revisions to master forward, followed by all of your subsequent changes20:56
nathanyi'm hopeful that:20:56
nathanya) we'll add very little data between now and when we finish this work20:56
nathanyand b) the worst case scenario we'd end up with is the new files still in the old location (since they wouldn't be carried over by re-playing the changesets)20:56
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paroneayeaoh right21:03
paroneayeayeah that makes sense21:03
paroneayeaoh man that commit to move the file over?21:03
paroneayeasince it pretty much moved thousands of files21:03
paroneayeait took minutes!21:03
paroneayeaI haven't seen git take minutes on a single commit before21:03
nathanywe're killing git!21:16
nathanymecredis: is the click tags/suggested tags shit in wordpress from the new tagging/category initiative for the blog?21:16
nathanyi can't figure out how to remove tags it suggested... or maybe i have to do something to actually add them?21:16
mecredisnathany: tags should show up with a little ( X ) icon21:17
mecredisso you can cancel them from a post21:17
mecredisbut they won't get added until you hit enter21:17
nathanythere is no "X"21:17
nathanyi'm talkign about the "suggested tags" block @ the bottom21:17
mecredisyou mean to remove them from the db?21:17
mecredisthey won't get added until you click them21:17
mecredisthose are still suggestions21:17
paulproteusThanks, nathany, for cleaning up after me. (-:21:21
nathanymecredis: oh, ok21:22
nathanypaulproteus: no problem ;)21:22
akozakmralex and mecredis: should I not add the DiscoverEd widget to a cc blog post about discovered?21:22
mecredisif you want I can take a look at the preview link?21:22
akozakwill that fuck things up?21:22
mecredisakozak: not sure, try it as a preview?21:22
paroneayeaif you guys know any nerds in portland who are willing to help with djangocon, apparently we had a guy bail on us21:23
akozakmecredis: thinking abour the rss feed...21:23
* paroneayea does not know any nerds in portland21:23
mecredisakozak:  a widget in the rss feed?21:23
mecredisnot sure RSS would pay attention21:23
mecredisbut who knows21:23
akozakthat's what I mean21:23
akozaklike would it just strip the <script> tag or would it include the code...21:24
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mecredisnathany: I'd add "firefox" "mozilla" etc as tags21:28
mecredisand add the Event category21:28
nathanymecredis: cool, thanks21:39
nathanymecredis: so what's the difference between post tags and "tags (simple tags)" on the right?21:50
nathanyi added the tags under post tags, saved, and, uh, tey're not there21:50
nathanyediting in the simple tags interface seems to work21:51
akozakyuck indeed21:51
mecredisyeah, we need to turn off one of those boxes21:54
mecredisthough nothing happens21:54
mecrediserr, we should be using simple tags21:54
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RewbieHello. Anyone around?22:03
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nathanyhi Rewbie22:05
nathanywhat's up?22:06
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RewbieHi nathany. I thought I'd asked this at the forum but replies there seem to be sparse. Just wondering if cc is also the right place to ask of other newbie license ideas? By this I mean I don't have any license knowledge but I'm kinda looking for a license that does this.22:06
Rewbie*does something22:06
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nathanyRewbie: we can try to help :)22:07
nathanyyou know what you want to accomplish and are wondering if there's a license that does that, right?22:07
nathany(just making sure I understand correctly)22:07
nathanySure, I'm happy to try and answer your question22:08
RewbieBrb, going to type this over notepad to make it easier.22:09
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RewbieBtw would pastebin be preferable here for paragraph posts or would ctrl+c be satisfactory?22:21
akozaknkinkade: having problems cloning a git repo on a6, permissions problem.22:23
nkinkadeakozak: Where?22:24
akozakin my home dir22:24
akozakERROR:gitosis.serve.main:Repository read access denied22:24
RewbiePastebin it is. Here's the link:
nkinkadeakozak: What repo are you trying to clone and how?22:26
nkinkadeRead access should be anonymous.22:26
nathanyRewbie: yup22:27
nathanyRewbie: pastebin is probably better for whole paragraphs22:27
Rewbieregarding the license, do you know of one that fits the definition?22:27
nathanyoh, got it22:27
nathanylet me read22:27
akozaknkinkade: I'm trying to git clone so that I can make some edits to it22:27
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akozakactually I might want to clone it in /var/www/opened22:28
nkinkadeakozak: That's a R/W URL.22:28
akozaknkinkade: yes :)22:28
nkinkadeSee http://code.creativecommons.org22:28
akozakI want r/w22:28
nkinkadeAnd you need to add a .git to the end of the repo.22:28
akozaknkinkade: actually, it might make sense to try and roll opened_scripts into ahab22:29
akozakif that's possible22:29
nathanyRewbie: I'm not aware of any license like that22:29
nathanyit sounds like you want something that allows any sort of re-use, but also allows the author to set out chunks that can not be modified?22:29
akozaknkinkade: all opened_scripts is is the python code that generates the front page boxes on http://opened.creativecommons.org22:29
nkinkadeakozak: Yeah, I guess it could make sense to include that in the theme if it's integral to it anyway.22:30
nathanyRewbie: that sounds a lot like the GFDL's "invariant sections"22:30
nathanyalthough many sites are moving away from that22:30
nathany(the GFDL)22:30
akozaknkinkade: it definitely is.22:30
akozaknkinkade: so should I just create a new dir and file in ahab, add it into git, and then we can remove opened_scripts?22:31
Rewbienathany: could you hint as to why sites are avoiding it?22:32
nkinkadeakozak: I don't see a problem with that, but you might want to consult with whoever set it up like that to begin with.22:32
akozakwas paulproteus22:32
nathanyRewbie: because items under that license are only remix-able with other GFDL licensed items and at this point CC BY-SA volume is growing faster22:33
nkinkadeMaybe you could send paulproteus an email or get lucky and have him respond in here.22:33
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nkinkadeIt seems reasonable to me, but there may be something I don't know.22:33
nathanyakozak, nkinkade: I suspect paulproteus  set it up that way because it was a temporary hack22:33
akozaknkinkade: well the main issue would be making it a cronjob22:33
nathany(and because they're not at all coupled -- they could run in different places)22:34
paulproteusYes, it was a temporary hack |:22:34
nkinkadeWhy is that an issue.22:34
paulproteusThere is a cron job in my account on that machine that runs it22:34
paulproteusJust svn up there, or something?22:34
nkinkadecrontab -e works well.22:34
akozaknathany: yes, but theoretically if that query for the csv stops generating the extra line, the job will get run again22:34
nathanyakozak: wtf?22:34
nathanyoh, don't just add a job,22:35
nathanyyou have sudo, use it man!22:35
Rewbienathany: Are there any qualities in cc-by sa that contradicts with what I want out of a license?22:35
nathanyRewbie: it doens't allow you to set out sections that may not be modified22:35
akozaknathany: yea, i mean ideally someone wouldn't need sudo to make the site work...22:35
nathany(although i personally think that'd make a work pretty unappealing for remix, Rewbie)22:36
akozakor to manually run a shell script to generate the boxes22:36
Rewbienathany: Why do you say that?22:36
nkinkadeSSH over GPRS is pretty horrible.  Not something anyone would want to do on a daily basis.22:36
nathanyif i'm interested enough to want to make a derivative, i don't want limitations on what i can do... completely my personal opinion22:37
nathanyakozak: ok, so let's kill off the old cron job22:37
nathanyOpenEd is a project without mandate or funding, we're not going to move past the cronjob approach at any point in the near future22:37
nkinkadeIRC works great, and even basic web pages load well enough in Firefox when image loading is disabled.22:37
akozaknathany: yea that makes sense22:37
akozaknathany: I'll roll this script into  the ahab repo then22:37
nkinkadeInternet still isn't up here, so I'm limping along on maybe 40kbps.22:38
Rewbienathany: I don't quite follow. If the original holder of the copyright allows for no limitations using that license, wouldn't it achieve what you want?22:38
paulproteusnkinkade, In my apartment in Philly, I have no wifi.22:38
akozaknathany: when you say "let's", just making sure you mean me? :)22:38
nkinkadepaulproteus: But you do have Ethernet that connects to something fast?22:38
nathanyakozak: yes22:38
paulproteusI'm tethering for my main 'net connection, wrapping it all over an SSH tunnel. (3G, though, via ADP; makes all the difference...)22:39
paulproteusnkinkade, Nothing at all. Just me and and my phone.22:39
nathanyRewbie: i'm just saying that I prefer my derivative permission to be clean cut -- either i can do whatever, i can't do anything, or i have to Share Alike22:39
paulproteusCurrently EDGE, not 3G.22:39
mralexi picked up a MiFi recently, having an aura of wifi is pretty nifty.22:39
nathanyRewbie: I read your proposal as allowing a mixed model where you could have a book with one paragraph unable to be modified22:40
* pyrak tells on paulproteus 22:40
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nathanyapologies if i misunderstood, Rewbie22:40
nkinkadepaulproteus: When you have time you might want to flash your Freerunner with SHR unstable ... it's getting quite polished.  And though tethering my laptop to the Freerunner and using GPRS is horrid ... I guess I'm glad I have it over nothing.22:40
* paulproteus frowns22:40
pyrakdo you know if your phone service provider has fine print that says you can't tether?22:40
nkinkadepaulproteus: How is your experience with EDGE and tethering?22:41
paulproteus(the frown is at Parker, not you, nkinkade!)22:41
paulproteusLivable. 3G is a hair better than livable.22:41
paulproteusMy mail is local, with offlineimap. My IRC/IM client is local.22:42
nkinkadeI'm pretty sure that there is an anti-tethering clause in my AT&T contract ... but I seriously doubt they are too worried about me using up too many resources.22:42
paulproteusI'm pretty sure there is one in my T-Mobile one too.22:42
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mralexburning a hole in the internet with that GPRS.22:42
nkinkadeI thought you were using git to sync your mail? :-)22:42
Rewbienathany: No, I agree with your sentiments. I just thought if there wasn't an option in there for such things, almost all works requiring quotes and sources for example are rendered unusable by the license since even if I want anyone to modify what I did, if the person I quoted with has a problem with their words possibly changing...then I wouldn't be able to put the quote in with such a license because then I'd be exposing the quote for modification even if th22:42
paulproteusI was, but I went back to offlineimap when I suspected it of being wrong "even though it couldn't be!".22:43
nkinkadeYeah, I'm sure other AT&T customers are getting dropped calls and iPhone users all over Miami Beach and surfing sloooow.22:43
paulproteusAnd I didn't want to put the time into being alone in this brave new world when I had other fish to fry.22:43
paulproteusThe most recent offlineimap sync took me about a week and a half, but now it's quick that it's finished.22:43
nkinkadeI've been pretty happy with offlineimap for the past 6 or so months.22:43
pyraknathany, did you get a chance to look at that ccsearch merge?22:44
nkinkadeWhat I don't like is how it throws and exception and quits when the Internet connection goes away even for a short period.22:44
nkinkade*an exception22:44
pyrak(i'm embarassed that i haven't been able to get it to work myself)22:45
nathanypyrak: i have not, although i noticed a commit that looks like the tracking info is borked22:45
nkinkadepaulproteus: Does Philly seem like an upgrade from Camp Creek (???) so far?22:45
nathanyi'm off tomorrow and friday so i won't be looking at it until tuesday22:45
paulproteusCamp Creek!? You mean East Point?22:46
Rewbienathany: btw do you know of any way to combine the CC Sharealike with the GFDL without paying for a lawyer? Is there something keeping the two from being combined?22:46
paulproteusEast Point had more space and more sunlight, but this place has awesome food trucks and "Vietnamese hoagies".22:46
paulproteusAlso it's small enough to bike around and I have friends here.22:46
nathanyRewbie: you mean combining them into a single license or allowing works under each to be combined?22:47
nkinkadeYes, East Point!  Sorry.  Camp Creek is a road. :-)22:47
Rewbienathany: single license22:47
nathanyRewbie: just needs a lawyer, I presume22:47
nathanyI'm not sure there's much of a point22:47
pyraknathany, okay, cool.  nkinkade, maybe i can convince you to take a look at it?22:47
Rewbienathany: How come?22:47
nathanyRewbie: you'd just create another, smaller silo of content that cant' be mixed with either of the others22:48
nkinkadepyrak: Sure, I'll try, but it might be hard with this connection I've got at the moment.22:48
nkinkadepyrak: What are you trying to merge again?22:49
pyraknkinkade, k.  i'm trying to merge the trunk into production22:49
pyrakand then make that live at
Rewbienathany: Yes, but wouldn't this only apply to remixes? Something like a fanfiction to novel or new edition to old edition wouldn't be affected right?22:49
pyrakit seems to me that the svnmerge tracking is borked22:49
nkinkadepyrak: Just wholesale?  Merge all of trunk right into production?22:49
nkinkadeJust making sure.22:49
pyraknkinkade, yes22:49
nkinkadepyrak: And we're using svnmerge for this or svn's regular merge command?22:50
nkinkadesvnmerge, I gather.22:50
nathanyRewbie: yes, only to derivatives; but fanfiction and remixes are both derivatives (the latter just adds an additional source)22:50
pyrakwell, svnmerge would be better because it clutters the logs less, right?22:50
nathanynkinkade: we're using svnmerge22:50
nathanybut i think the tracking info is borked22:50
pyraki guess the bottom line is that using a normal merge would probably work, but it's nonetheless a good idea to fix the svnmerge stuff22:51
pyrakso we can have it in the future22:51
Rewbienathany: ok thanks22:51
nathany(using a normal merge would work if you have a list of specific revs you want to merge ;) )22:51
pyrakas i recall, the last merge i did had the same issue, so i just did a normal svn merge22:51
pyrakwell, you could merge from when the production branch was created (off of trunk, as i recall)22:52
akozaknkinkade: we're tracking the file in opened_scripts.git under ahab now. my preference would be to remove opened_scripts so that it doesn't get worked on outside of ahab22:52
nkinkadesvn up is faster than I expected over GPRS.22:52
nkinkadeakozak: Was anyone else ever using that repository?22:53
akozakAsheesh was, but like he said it was a temp fix22:53
nkinkadeIf someone has it cloned or is using it in some other way we might not want to just blast it.  Just a thought.22:53
akozakit's definitely a part of the ahab skin22:53
* nathany rolls his eyes22:53
nkinkadenathany: rolling eyes about removing opened_scripts???22:54
Rewbienathany: Oh. One final question. Are licenses only necessary once something has been brought up in court? I understand that something as mass-appealing as CC would need to pre-empt this but what I mean by this is that if you have contacted a publisher and they weren't satisfied by the license as proof that you can get away with modifying the work, they can still make it hard for a modifier to get published regardless of how sound the license?22:55
nathanynkinkade: no, unrelated (although i don't totally agree that it's part of the skin, it's fine to merge those repos)22:55
nkinkadenathany: Just to be sure ... fine to remove the opened_scripts repo totally?22:55
akozakcan't imagine anyone using it outside of our narrow context currently using it. it wasnt even working until nathany fixed it today.22:56
nathanyRewbie: so you mean if you made a derivative based on a CC BY work and the publisher said they didn't believe the license?22:56
* pyrak boots up winblows and prepares to squash this last acawiki bug22:57
nathanyi guess i'm not sure what you're asking22:57
Rewbienathany: Yes, something like that. Although in this case, I meant something obscure like what you suggested of contacting a lawyer who can combine GFDL and CC. I think at least with CC, you can link to sites or ask for support in pursuing this case but 1 license + 1 lawyer seems weaker.22:57
akozak2 licenses 1 lawyer22:58
nathanyif they don't believe you, thye don't have to publish you; i don't see what that has to do with the license :)22:58
nathany(or courts)22:58
nathanybut it's been a long day and maybe i'm dense22:58
* pyrak goes idle22:58
Rewbieakozak: No just 1 license. Since it's a combined license of the 2.22:59
akozakRewbie: bad joke, nvm22:59
Rewbieakozak: Oh sorry.22:59
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akozakI've gotta brush up on my bedside manner for mozilla service week...23:00
Rewbienathany: Well what I'm afraid of is two parts: 1, if you're already a small player in a big market, you can easily reduce your publication potential simply by adapting the license. 2, even if you get past this, what about people who modify your work? They're in a worst boat because they can't be sure they couldn't be accused of plagiarizing so this renders the license useless "for fear of license not being believable"23:01
akozakRewbie: I think nathany is out for the day. You might consider pinging the cc-community list about this.23:02
akozakor maybe I can help, but admittedly I haven't been following the convo closely23:03
Rewbieakozak: How does that work? I normally avoid these things because they seem like bug list in which you're not really sure if someone reads them, someone notices them or someone just doesn't care?23:04
Rewbieakozak: Oh, here's the pastebin. This is pretty much it:
Rewbienathany then suggested the GFDL but states people moved to CC By SA because it can be coupled with non-GFDLed works.23:05
akozakRewbie: It's a discussion list (not a bug list). You don't really have anything to lose by asking, worst case is no one responds.23:05
RewbieThen he/she hinted at the idea that a lawyer can combine the two at the cost of cutting it off from both licenses.23:05
akozakRewbie: I guess I don't understand the use of "plagarism" in the context of licensing. Is there a better word?23:06
Rewbieakozak: No, that was what I meant by comparing it to a bug list. I'm also afraid of a bug list because I don't know the proper timeline for monitoring it and it can be dreadful just looking at a blank topic daily not really being sure if I should stop visiting it.23:06
Rewbieakozak: nathany used "derivatives" and "remixes"23:07
akozakSo can you repeat why CC BY-SA doesn't work?23:07
RewbieI prefer the words "plagiarism" though because my original desire was to have a license that sends the message of "improve this!" rather than just "open for modification"23:07
akozakRewbie: that's the same thing (improve/adapt), and plagarism means something specific, which is claiming authorship of something that you didn't author23:08
Rewbieakozak: It doesn't allow for invariant sections23:08
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akozakRewbie: Maybe you could use CC BY-SA for the sections you want modified, and full copyright on not. IMO that isn't very useful for anyone, but it's technically possible23:09
Rewbieakozak: Yeah, the latter is what I meant. I feel it's too bothersome if you have to follow the trail of modifications. Why not just claim what you added and as long as you list the changes you did, why not credit it as your own? After all, you improved it.23:09
akozakRewbie: All of the CC licenses require attribution to the original author23:10
Rewbieakozak: Hmm... then I guess that also falls into what CC by SA doesn't do.23:10
akozakso, I don't think I can suggest a way to use CC licenses to do that, unless you can get the original author to either use the CC0 waiver or ask for attribution to no one or something like that23:10
Rewbieakozak: What if I'm the original author? Also what is the CC0 waiver?23:11
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akozakIf you're the original author, you can't use one CC license to put different terms on different sections23:12
RewbieI don't understand the difference between it and having it on a public domain. I have no experience with understanding licenses.23:13
akozakthere isn't a substantial difference23:13
Rewbieakozak: Doesn't that pretty much make it no different than putting the work on a public domain?23:13
akozakyes that's basically what it does23:14
akozakbut that sounds like what you want almost, the absence of use/reuse restrictions like attribution23:15
Rewbieakozak: I kind of don't want that. Public domain seems sketchy and there's no protection for the modifier if they get accused of plagiarizing.23:15
akozakRewbie: you said you want people to be able to "plagarize"23:15
Rewbieakozak: True. But let's say someone did plagiarize the public domain and they get accused of plagiarizing. There's no way for the modifier to say, well the author wanted it. Especially if they sell it. Alternatively, there's no motivation in keeping the plagiarist from improving the product since there's no changelog requirement which another plagiarist can refer to when comparing two versions unless they specifically look for and compare the difference copy b23:17
akozakRewbie: IANAL, but if the work is in the public domain, I don't think there would be a copyright claim for plagarism anyways.23:18
akozak<this is not legal advice>23:18
RewbieIn a sense there's no ego involved because the plagiarist is under pressure to not get caught plagiarizing nevertheless as opposed to a wiki, analogically speaking where improving on it is seen as a beneficial thing23:18
akozakare you looking for moral protection from plagarism?23:18
nkinkadeRewbie: Just from what I've skimmed of the conversation, it seems to me like you've got more questions about copyright in general than simply with CC licenses.23:18
akozakor from accusation of plagarism rather23:18
akozakyea Rewbie, I'm definitely out of my pay grade here23:19
akozakand expertise23:19
akozakI think you need to get clear on whether you want actual legal protection, or something users could use as evidence against an accusation of wrongdoing outside the legal system23:20
Rewbieakozak: No, a legal one as to promote and inspire the modifier to actually improve it. A way of universally saying, "I, the author, want people to plagiarize this as to improve the works of which I am not able to maximize. In exchange, you can take credit for the entire work as long as you list the improvements so that someone in the future can much more easily improve their version without being bogged by the threat of multiple copies of unknown or public ori23:20
akozakRewbie: I think that contradicts the definition of plagarism23:21
Rewbie@nkinkade: Yes, my original question to nathany was if this was the right place to ask for such copyright questions and he/she said it would be fine and he/she would try to help.23:21
cchelpbot`Rewbie: Error: "nkinkade:" is not a valid command.23:21
Rewbieakozak: From what I understand of plagiarism, it is only because plagiarism is often seen as a reactionary that it seems to contradict it.23:22
akozakRewbie: if the author grants the legal right to re-attribute the work, then there is no plagarism when it is reappropriated. You are specifying a certain kind of license agreement.23:23
RewbieI mean even if one lists the changelog and the version they're improving upon, there's no guarantee that it is by the original author.23:23
akozakRewbie: I think CC BY-SA is what you want, only with the original author waiving the attribution requirement.23:23
akozakbut I could be wrong23:23
akozakand very well might be23:23
akozakerr, that was redundant23:23
akozakanyway, sorry I can't be of more help Rewbie23:24
akozaklike I said, feel free to use the cc-community list to ask if CC licenses could do what you want23:25
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Rewbieakozak: Well, hopefully this doesn't sound redundant as well, I think the core of where we're not communicating well is in the aspect of "reputation" + "legality". That is by your perception as long as one is in the public domain, it is legally seen as modifiable, end of story. Where I'm seeing is the human element that comes with it or rather the post-effect. That is, even if an item is in a public domain, let's say someone modifies it with the entire copy in23:28
RewbieRather what happens is the modifier can be incentivize to repackage it.23:29
RewbieI.e. he's not plagiarizing but he's doing something potentially worse in that he's cutting off the original product so that he can take credit for the product LEGALLY AND to bypass the public perception of plagiarism.23:29
RewbieIn this case, the license is like a legal "copyright" but not as a defensive one but as an incentived one. If that makes sense.23:30
Rewbieakozak: Btw should I just send an e-mail to the ibiblio link or must I subscribe?23:32
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akozakRewbie: I think you need to subscribe.23:34
RewbieWhat do I do next? E-mail?23:39
RewbieI meant e-mail to the link? as opposed to e-mail confirmation23:39
akozakOnce you subscribe you should get an email with instructions.23:39
RewbieDamn, I think I deleted it permanently.23:42
akozakTry re-subscribing?23:43
RewbieNo, I'm subscribed. I meant the e-mail with instructions.23:43
akozakIf you confirmed you should be able to send an email to the group.23:43
Rewbieakozak: By e-mail? I can't spot it in the login page. The screen where you are asked to edit digest mode and so on and so forth.23:44
akozakRewbie: Yes, send it to
RewbieWhat should I name it?23:45
RewbieI meant to make the topic clear that is.23:47
akozakThat's up to you :)23:47
Rewbieakozak: You know the community more. I figure'd since I'm not posting a topic that may specifically concern CC, a clearer way to define the topic would be more noticeable as opposed to being seen as a troll attempt.23:49
akozakJust try to be as clear as possible, that's all I can really say.23:50
akozakand it is a CC-specific list, so if the question is about licenses and copyright in general, it's less likely to get answered23:50
RewbieClear isn't my middle name. :( Semi-joke. Even in this chat, you can tell I don't know how to make the idea sound specific.23:51
paroneayeankinkade: you there?23:51
akozakRewbie: Maybe you should spend some time doing a bit of research and clarifying the question before you ask it on the list?23:52
mralexRewbie: it's a fairly low traffic list, your query isn't likely to get lost :)23:52
akozakIt wouldn't take years to get a law degree if the law were easy23:52
akozakok, I'm out for the day23:54
akozakgood luck Rewbie23:54
Rewbieakozak: thanks.23:54
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Rewbiemralex: Thanks for the encouragement. I'm more afraid of alienating the community though. Not sure a low brow question like mine could be welcome especially if it's vague.23:55
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