Friday, 2009-01-16

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nathanyWeird, I'm connected to IRC from Emacs :)00:10
nathanypaulproteus would approve00:10
Bovinitynathany: Ladyhawke is pretty great00:10
nathanyi know, right?00:10
nkinkadenathany, Bovinity: Have either of you ever had to resolve merge conflicts with git?00:19
nkinkadeDid you use git-mergetool?00:19
Bovinitynathany: if you forgive the name, you may also enjoy "New Young Pony Club"00:22
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nkinkadenathany: There seems to be a problem with the welcome script on a9 ... it's emitting the error:16:44
nkinkadesocket.error: (111, 'Connection refused')16:44
nkinkadeMaybe has to do with the new IP address?16:45
nathanyhow do you know? i haven't seen any errors come through the cron reporter (trying to run it manually?)16:45
nkinkadeI have configured Postfix to only listen on 1 IP address, so maybe it's trying to bind to port 25 on the wrong IP?16:45
nkinkadeI just tried to run it manually.16:45
nkinkadeMaybe I did it in the wrong context?16:45
nathanyone second16:45
nkinkadeSomeone didn't get their invitation, so I went to resend it.16:45
nathanynkinkade: so postfix isn't listening on localhost anymore?16:47
nkinkadenathany: It should be, let me verify that, though.16:48
nathanythat seems to fit the error you're seeing, your previous comment, and the configuration16:48
nkinkadeI'll be damned ... seems to not be.16:48
nathanythat's the problem16:48
nkinkadeI must have fucked up the configuration somehow.16:49
nkinkadeI'll fix it now.16:49
nkinkadeI needed to have Postfix only bind to a single external IP so as to avoid reverse DNS problems with other servers.16:50
nkinkadeMy setting inet_interfaces must have messed it up, but I'm not sure how.16:50
nkinkadeAnyway, thanks.16:50
nathanysure :)16:50
nkinkadenathany: It's fixed now, but I suppose that means that any invites since the time I made that change (2 days?) would not have gone out.16:57
nkinkadeI can find a list of those people in CiviCRM and manually send them out I guess.16:57
nathanyi would have expected to see errors in the cron job reports16:58
nathanythat get emailed to me16:58
nkinkadeDid you get one today or last night?16:58
nathanyplease double check but i won't be surprised if there weren't any16:58
nkinkadeThat is possible, but there was at least one.16:59
nathanylooks like the last one I received was 4 days ago16:59
nathanythey dropped off dramatically after Jan 116:59
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nathanynkinkade: HAH17:28
nathanyI just received a bunch of cron failures17:28
nathanyof course I wasn't getting them -- postfix wasn't listening on localhost :)17:29
nathany(bunch == a few)17:29
nkinkadenathany: Is that a Ricky Henderson Hah, or a lightbulb-above-the-head Hah?17:30
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nkinkadenathany: Do the cron mails you got indicate email addresses that we can use to resend missed invitations?17:55
nathanythey normally do, but not when there's an error17:55
nkinkadeMaybe the script should catch that error and handle it more gracefully, perhaps write a record to a file or something?17:58
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nathanynkinkade: yeah, I suppose it should use the logger to print the error18:04
nathanyso at least it goes into the email message cron send18:04
nathany(i don't see any reason to involve a file)18:04
nkinkadeYeah, a file isn't ideal, but I was thinking that if mail is broken, then mails won't be of much use, but I guess the mail will still sit around in your local inbox.18:06
nathanynkinkade: can you create a ticket for me on code so i don't forget that?18:17
nkinkadenathany: Sure.18:17
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Nerd42Hello! :)18:22
Nerd42er wait this should go to #freeculture18:22
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mlinksvadeeds are a little bit like baseball cards, come to think of it19:06
greg-gapropos of..?19:09
nathanytrading cards!19:13
mlinksvagreg-g: someone wrote in complaining that their license button was showing a picture of rickey henderson.  nkinkade hypothesized that it was dns poisoning on their end.  or maybe they're insane19:17
Bovinitymy simplified deed illustrations do kind of resemble trading cards....19:22
mlinksvamaybe i can find someone dumb to trade a poor condition sampling+ card for something better19:29
greg-goooo! ooo! where do I buy packs of 20 deeds? (presumably with 17 sampling+'s, 2 BY-NC-ND and one BY-NC-SA, ie: just like baseball cards, nothing good!)19:31
nathanygreg-g: you mean 1 sampling+, 16 nc-sampling+ ;)19:31
greg-galthough, now that sampling+ is no longer in print, is it worth more?19:32
nathanythe market is flooded :)19:33
greg-gdang :(19:33
mlinksvauh, sampling+ is still in print, only in liquor stores or something.  sampling is the only one retired, due to a batting average of .00519:38
greg-gI knew baseball analogies worked for everything.19:40
BovinityFounders Copyright, still in its plastic wrapper.19:41
mlinksvado baseball analogies work for baseball analogies?19:41
* greg-g 's head asplodes19:42
mlinksvadid FC ever reach manufacturing?  you had to send in 100 different proofs of purchase to get one19:43
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nkinkadeBut for the record it was nathany who suggested DNS poisoning, though I can't explain how else the by-nc-sa icon would become Ricky Henderson.19:56
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bsperanI've read the FAQ and Advanced FAQ. But I still have a few questions:21:37
bsperanFor example, about this:21:37
bsperanCC. Some rights reserved.21:38
bsperan"Ramadan_fine_512 by [url=]bsperan[/url] is licensed under a [url=]Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License[/url]."21:38
bsperanIf someone wants to use the image, would they have to quote that letter for letter? Or merely attribute it to a "bsperan"?21:38
nkinkadebsperan: Did you see the FAQ entry for giving proper attribution?21:39
nkinkadeA copyright holder can specify how they'd like to be attributed, but they don't have to.21:39
nkinkadePerhaps the best place to look is at the actual license.21:40
nkinkadeSection 4(a)21:40
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bsperanOk, that explains most of my questions.21:42
bsperanBut is there a way to word it so as to require users to mention HOW I created the work? Such as if I want the attribution to mention "created in Blender" or "created in Adobe Photoshop" ?21:43
bsperanI think there should be a way. I'm clueless on how to word it.21:44
nkinkadebsperan: I'm not sure about that.  I know you can specify a few things about how you want to be attributed, but I'm not sure it goes as far as being able to require people to mention the software you used to create the work.21:49
nkinkadebsperan: Whether it's legally binding or not, there is nothing stopping you from requesting that people do so, and I'd bet that most people would comply either because they want to respect your wishes or because they don't know any better.21:49
nkinkadeEither way you probably get what you want.21:50
bsperanThe thing is: I want a legally binding method. I'm trying to pitch the idea of using a Creative Commons license (for "donating" images to others) to the community as a way to 'spread the word' about their Inkscape open source vector graphics editor.22:04
nathanybsperan: there's not a legally binding way to do that with a CC license22:05
nkinkadebsperan: I haven't read it closely in a while ... did you see anything 4(a) that might be relevant?22:06
nathanythe license says you can specify the URL for attribution, but also says the URL should be relevant to the copyright of the work22:06
bsperanCurrently, they recommend users donate images to as a way of helping others and "spreading the word". But puts images under public domain, which is essentially giving up your rights.22:06
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nathanybsperan: if you want to raise awareness of (for example) Inkscape seems like a good approach would be to use a CC license (which has good brand recognition) and encourage creators to place "ads" for Inkscape on their attribution pages22:07
nathanyso when people click through to find out more about the work they see prominent details about how Inkscape was used22:07
bsperanBut CC licenses also state that intellection property right owners have the right to be attributed in the manner they specify. Wouldn't "Ramadan_fine_512 by <a href="">bsperan</a> in Inkscape" be a specification of a type of attribution?22:09
bsperanThe "in the manner they specify" part confuses me.22:10
nathanymy understanding (IANAL) is that the "manner" refers to the name or psuedonym they wish to use and the URL they wish people to point to22:10
nkinkadebsperan: I was alluding to that in 4(a), but it's not clear to me either exactly what that might entail.22:10
nathanymight be worth asking on cc-community22:11
nkinkadebsperan: nathany's idea seems good, and like I say, in any case, there's nothing stopping you from asking that people attribute you in that way, and I suspect that most everyone would.22:11
nkinkadeYou're probably not going to sue the person who doesn't anyway, so whether that part is legally binding or not may not ultimately matter in a realistic sense.22:12
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bsperanWhat about an Open Source, GNU GPL-licensed game project that wants to include Creative Commons content - specifically, textures/images? (In most cases the images would be used to added texture in-game to 3D models.) Would the game need to be licensed under CC as well?22:23 recommends againt licensing software under a Creative Commons license - with the exception of CC-GNU GPL. The CC-GNU GPL license is a combination of CC and GNU GPL. However, as understand it, with CC-GNU GPL the CC only applies to cover an implimentation of a CC-like online human-readable and lawyer-readable legal code system for the GNU-licensed software. This is merely intended to make a GNU GPL software's legal22:25
bsperanlegible for laymen and lawyers alike, correct?22:25
nkinkadebsperan: That is correct.22:29
nkinkadeIt doesn't change the GPL, just provides a human-readable wrapper.22:29
bsperanIn relation to my earlier question: The advanced FAQ states:22:31
bsperan"(2) credit the author, licensor and/or other parties (such as a wiki or journal) in the manner they specify;"22:31
nkinkadebsperan: I think you'll get more mileage out of this on the cc-community list, as nathany mentioned.22:33
bsperanIt sounds to me like, POSSIBLY, a software suite such as Blender or a website such as could be considered  "other parties"22:33
nkinkadeOn cc-community you may get responses from people all over the world ... some of them possibly lawyers.22:33
bsperanAre you referring to ?22:34
bsperanI may have to try that. I haven't had any responses to stuff I post on the forum...22:34
nkinkadebsperan: You'll have better luck on the cc-community list for sure.22:36
bsperanOne last question: I'm a bit confused about the Share Alike licenses and their definition of "derivative works". I know of at least one open source software that uses by-nc-sa licensed images. Wouldn't that use require the software to be licensed under Share Alike? Or is software considered too different to fall under "derivative work"?22:40
nkinkadebsperan: Depends on whether it's considered a adaptation or collection.  Again, take a look at the license I linked to above.22:41
nkinkadeSections 1(a) and 1(b)22:41
nkinkadeA derivative/adaptation triggers the SA clause, not a colleciton.22:41
bsperanSo if we're talking about an open source game that's using the images for mesh textures, then that is considered a "Collective Work"?22:45
bsperanThat's how I would interpret the clause...22:46
nkinkadebsperan: Only a court could answer that definitively.22:46
nkinkadeI'm not trying to be evasive ... those are just tough legal questions that lawyers could go back and forth on for years.22:47
bsperanPerhaps in version 4.0 of the licenses the legal code could spell out definitively which works are considered Collective Works? It couldn't specify every possible use or condition, of course. But I think the most common uses could be mentioned.22:50
bsperanAt least this version clarifies that music videos ARE considered derivative works.22:52
bsperanThanks for the feedback guys.  :)22:55
nkinkadebsperan:  As you say, there is a potentially limitless list of edge cases. It would be impossible and not practical to try to list them or even a reasonable subset of them, I think.22:55
bsperanBut then, since when has legal code and disclaimers been written to be practical to end users?  ;)22:58
bsperanIn terms of making it more understandable to lay persons, Creative Commons is definately a step in the right direction. But I think there is still room for improvement.22:59
nkinkadeThat's probably true.  Everything's a work in progress. :-)23:00
bsperanAnd, unfortunately, the CC approach to legal speak has not caught on for other applications and other legal disclaimers.23:00
nkinkadenathany: Do you know if we have any special custom namespaces on the CC wiki?23:23
nkinkadeIt seems that in order to do this Talk page thing we may have to reverse our security model from default no write, to default write, then selectively block.23:24
nathanywe use namespaces for the translations although i can't remember if they're "real" namespaces (ie, declared in the config file)23:24
nkinkadeOr at least with the methods I am seeing.23:24
nathanythat sounds... annoying23:24
nathanyand not worth it23:25
nathany(i can be convinced, just seems like a pain)23:25
nkinkadeI found a semi reasonable way, I think, but I have no way of knowing if it's covering everything.23:25
nkinkadeOn that page, they give a specific example of enabling anonymous Talk edits, while restricting other edits to emailconfirmed.23:26
nathanyso using
nkinkadeNo, here:
nkinkadeBut my question was whether those namespaces in the list covered everything we have.23:27
nathanywell anything else will be listed in LocalSettings.php as a declared namespace23:27
nathanywell, that's not true23:27
nathanyone second23:27
nathanyso there are several namespaces added by SMW23:28
nkinkadeMy general thought is that this is a slight complication that will be useful to very few people.23:28
nathany(and SF)23:28
nathanyi was thinking there was a special page that would like all registered namespaces but i can't find it23:29
nkinkadeI couldn't find such a thing either.23:29
nkinkadeI found a list of the standard MW ones, but nothing more.23:29
nathanyand SMW, SF, etc all add namespaces23:30
nkinkadeI think what I may do is reply to Michelle and those people and ask about this.23:31
nkinkadeA security model that defaults to open and leaves you running around trying to plug holes seems less than ideal.23:31
nathanysee for a list23:31
nkinkadeWell, not a "security" model, but a spam-prevention model.23:31
nathanyyeah, this already feels like way more effort than it's worth23:31
nathany"just say no"23:32
nathany(or i will)23:32
nathany(if you prefer)23:32
nkinkadeI'm going to stop where I'm at and reply to them and spell out what we need.23:32
nathanyfeel free to spell it out or just say "we're not going to make the change at this time"23:32
nkinkadeIf they can come up with a simple solution, fine, otherwise, it's more trouble than it's worth and one more thing to think about during upgrades etc.23:32
nathanyi can see us totally shooting ourselves in the foot with this approach23:33
nkinkadeI'll copy you on my reply.  Thanks for even spending the last 10 minutes looking at this. :-)23:33
nathanysure :)23:33
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