Thursday, 2008-01-24

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CShadowRunHey, i was thinking about putting out some of my work under the CC, however i heard that you shouldn't release software under the CC, why?09:45
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tvolCShadowRun: see http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#Can_I_use_a_Creative_Commons_license_for_software.3F09:52
CShadowRunthanks.09:52
tvolno problem!09:52
tvolnathany how was italy?09:52
nathanytvol: italian09:53
nathany:)09:53
nathanyit was actually cool... berlin was a lot of fun, too09:53
nathanyi experienced the national foods, i think -- pizza in italy and jagermeister in germany09:53
tvolnathany oh i didn't know you were there too. you gave talk in torino?09:53
CShadowRunhmm, so it says i should use the GPL for my software09:53
tvoland berlin?09:53
nathanyyeah, gave a talk @ a EU conference in torino09:54
nathanytacked a trip to CCi onto the beginning09:54
nathanyCShadowRun: we recommend using an open source license for software, not a CC one09:54
nathanyhere at CC we use GPL, LGPL, and the MIT licenses09:54
CShadowRunyea, i know. It's just such a nightmare to choose09:54
nathanypersonally i just limit my choices to those 3 and use some distinctions to make the decision09:55
CShadowRunI pretty much just want something that says that you are allowed to use my software however you want providing you give a clear pointer to me and my website09:55
nathanyIIRC the BSD license does this -- requires the "notice" to remain intact09:55
nathanyhttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/BSD/09:56
CShadowRunthanks :)09:56
* CShadowRun reads09:56
nathanyer, maybe not09:56
* nathany reads, too09:56
nathanyOK, so both MIT and BSD require that the copyright notice and license terms be included when the source is redistributed09:56
nathanyhttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/MIT/09:57
CShadowRunhmm, but that doesn't say they have to provide a clear link back to me and my website :(09:57
nathanyif that link is in the copyright notice they'd have to retain it09:58
nathanyof course IIRC this applies primarily to the source code09:58
CShadowRuni guess so but that would just mean there was a hidden link in some text document that nobody would ever read09:58
nathanyif you're doing a web app where you want a link on the pages, you might consider licensing the code under an open source license and the theme under a CC license09:59
nathany(thereby requiring attribution)09:59
CShadowRunthe theme?09:59
nathanytheme == "look and feel" (CSS, templates, etc for a web app)09:59
CShadowRunoh right, nah it's not a web app09:59
nathanyis this a web application you're developing?09:59
nathanyah, ok09:59
nathanyso where would you like the link to appear?10:00
CShadowRunjust a few simple windows utils10:00
CShadowRunwell preferably clearly visable near the download link10:00
nathanyoh, so you want them to provide a link back to you if they redistribute the work verbatim?10:00
CShadowRunyup10:00
nathanyi'm honestly not sure any popular license will require that10:00
CShadowRunoh, i thought that would be a pretty popular request lol10:01
CShadowRuni could just leave it under the normal copywrite, then they have to email me for permission and i can just say yes, right?10:01
nathanyI think there's a behavioral norm that handles a lot of that10:01
nathanysure10:01
nathanyor my experience is that when you write software, you usually include an "about" dialog10:02
CShadowRunyea it does have an about dialog10:02
nathanypeople have little motivation to repost your work w/o a link to you10:02
nathanybecause users will either a)see the about dialog10:02
CShadowRunbut i can so see someone releasing a modified version, and removing the dialog10:02
nathanyok, sure10:02
nathanythat's a possibility10:02
CShadowRunit'd just be so easy to steal it and claim it for your own lol10:03
nathanymy instinct is that it's a slim one10:03
* CShadowRun is a firm beliver in murphys law10:03
nathanywell that's why the source can have a license statement w/ your copyright, etc10:03
nathanyheh10:03
CShadowRunguess i could make my own license, but i'm afraid that i'll mess it up somehow.10:03
CShadowRunnot having any legal experiance at all, and such.10:04
nathanyyeah, that's totally not worth it10:04
nathanylicense proliferation is a problem as it is and i know that i personally immediately discount software with "custom" licenses10:04
CShadowRunhmm10:05
nathanyput another way, what motivation would i have to rebrand your software as mine?  i don't want support emails about it :)10:06
CShadowRunhaha you'd be suprised how many kiddies try to steal credit from some of the stuff i already put out10:07
CShadowRunit's like those stupid 10 year olds that think they are cool because they can modify the about dialog. :(10:07
nathanysure10:07
CShadowRunhmm, with the GPL no propriatary software can use your code right?10:08
nathanyright10:08
CShadowRunlol, what i need is a CC for software10:08
nathanyany derivatives need to be licensed under the GPL as well10:08
CShadowRunyou should make one already! :P10:08
nathanynot gonna happen10:08
CShadowRun:<10:09
nathanyThere's a huge number of open source licenses that have already been vetted and are in widespread use... very different situation compared to creative works10:09
CShadowRunhmm, so with reguards to putting the content of my website under the CC10:10
CShadowRunwhat's the deal with getting credit for other people using your work?10:10
nathanyall of our licenses requires Attribution when a work is reused; this is typically in the form of a link back to the source10:11
CShadowRunthat's cool, i'll probably use the CC on my website atleast then :)10:11
nathanygreat :)10:11
CShadowRunis a shame, would be really nice to put CC on my software too10:11
CShadowRunis there any sort of license that's almost the same as CC for software?10:12
nathanywell there are 6 different CC licenses, so same as which?10:13
CShadowRunhmm10:13
CShadowRunthe allow commercial uses, and allow modifications one.10:13
nathanyso just attribution or attribution share alike?10:14
nathanyGPL, LGPL, MIT, BSD, Apache -- all of them allow commercial use and modifications10:14
CShadowRunshare alike10:14
CShadowRunGPL allows commercial use? i thought it didn't?10:14
CShadowRuni thought GPL was like the middle finger to propriatary software10:15
nathanyeh, sort of10:15
nathanyGPL requires that you release the source as well10:15
nathanyso commercial business models typically are based on services instead of licensing10:15
CShadowRuni see10:15
CShadowRunand what about attribution with GPL?10:16
CShadowRunthat's just the licensing docs, no links on the website or anything10:16
nathanyyeah, i guess that's right10:16
CShadowRunand with GPL it leaves people free to remove anything i put in the program10:16
CShadowRunwhich makes it pretty easy to screw the author over lol10:16
nathanyyes, but they have to keep the source open10:16
nathanyif i may be blunt, it sounds like you're interested in keeping control of the code and only allowing free redistribution10:17
CShadowRunlol i'm happy for people to modify it and re-release, that's cool10:17
nathanythat's fine10:17
nathanybut...10:17
CShadowRunI just want credit for my work, and i mainly want a good link back to my website10:17
CShadowRunmainly because any money i do make from it, is gonna be from the adverts on my website. Lol10:18
nathanyah, ok10:18
nathanyunfortunately i don't have any suggestions that help with that10:18
CShadowRunso it's all well and good people can use it for whatever they want, providing theres a clear route back to my site10:18
CShadowRunaww :(10:18
nathanymaybe http://opensource.org? they have descriptions of OSI licenses10:19
CShadowRunok, guess i'll start reading :)10:19
CShadowRunatleast i got my website set :D10:19
nathanysorry :)10:19
nathanygreat10:19
nathany!]10:19
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CShadowRunyay, found the license i need to use for my software. The old version of the BSD License before they removed the advertising clause.13:59
CShadowRunthat only took...3 days :(14:00
CShadowRunlol14:00
UltraMagnuslol14:04
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CIA-43paulproteus * r8764 /livecontent/f8-minimal/make_cd.sh: switching to trivial local repository of just cc-home16:28
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CIA-43nkinkade * r8765 /ccwordpress/trunk/conf/creativecommons.conf: Reordered several rewrite rules to correct issue with legalcode now displaying16:37
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paulproteustvol, bovinity, FYI I'm working on the F8 transition for LiveContent right now.16:49
tvolpaulproteus: sweet16:49
paulproteusThis is one of those times where I say to myself, I wish I knew everything so I wouldn't have to spend ages learning it.16:53
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CIA-43paulproteus * r8766 /livecontent/f8-minimal/ (cc-livecd-template.ks packages-cc.txt): add local mirror, plus remove non-f8 packages17:05
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CIA-43nkinkade * r8767 /ccwordpress/vendor/wordpress/current/ (17 files in 5 dirs): Load ./wordpress-2.3.2 into ccwordpress/vendor/wordpress/current.17:31
CIA-43nkinkade * r8768 /ccwordpress/vendor/wordpress/2.3.2/:17:31
CIA-43Tag ccwordpress/vendor/wordpress/current as17:31
CIA-43ccwordpress/vendor/wordpress/2.3.2.17:31
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CIA-43nkinkade * r8769 /ccwordpress/trunk/www/ (17 files in 5 dirs): Upgrade of Wordpress from 2.3.1 to 2.3.217:35
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naufragiopaulproteus, i could scream about CC's new contact form!22:47
naufragio1. it doesn't accept plus-addressing as a valid email address!22:47
naufragio2. the captcha doesn't accept digits?! i have to spell out the word? (and it doesn't tell you that?)22:48
naufragiowhat were you guys thinking22:49
*** naufragio changes topic to "Creative Commons http://creativecommons.org :: chat logs -> http://mirrors.creativecommons.org/irc/cc/ :: related groups' IRC: #freeculture | No answer? Email the lists - http://creativecommons.org/discuss | New contact form sucks, wth!"22:50
* naufragio takes his ball and goes home22:50
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